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Old October 3rd, 2017, 06:20 PM   #1
mattsmith48
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Default Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

What happen Sunday was just horrible, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy condemned the violence on both sides (Just a joke). If this had happened in the Middle East people throughout the western world would be calling the US to overthrow the leader.

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Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of Catalonia on Tuesday to protest against Sunday's violent crackdown by Spanish police on an outlawed independence referendum for the region.

Spain's King Felipe VI responded by saying that Catalan authorities have deliberately bent the law with "irresponsible conduct" and that the Spanish state needs to ensure constitutional order and the rule of law in Catalonia.

Delivering an address to the nation by television Tuesday night, the king said that the bid by authorities in the northeastern region to push ahead with independence has "undermined coexistence" in Catalonia.

"Today, Catalan society is fractured and confronted," Felipe said, referring to the political crisis as "very serious moments for our democratic life."

He said that the state needs to ensure Spain's constitutional order and the correct functioning of Catalan institutions and rule of law.

Spain's conservative government has said it will respond with "all necessary measures" to counter the Catalan defiance, and is holding talks with national opposition leaders to find multi-partisan consensus on the response, which could include suspending the region's self-government.

Protesters call for Spanish PM to resign


Meanwhile, in Barcelona's Catalonia and University squares, a sea of demonstrators waved flags, most of them "esteladas," embraced by those seeking secession, but there were also plenty of Spanish national flags.

One of the biggest groups concentrated around the Spanish national police headquarters in Barcelona, where protesters called them "occupying forces" and called for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to resign.

Metro stations shut down in Barcelona, pickets blocked dozens of roads and state workers walked out in response to a call for a general strike by pro-independence groups and trade unions. Many small businesses also shut down for the day.

Many non-separatists were also drawn to the streets following a crackdown on a referendum vote on Sunday.

Pro-independence parties who control the regional government staged Sunday's referendum in defiance of Spanish courts that had ruled it illegal. Some 900 people were injured on polling day when police fired rubber bullets and charged at crowds with truncheons to disrupt the vote.

Results showed voters overwhelmingly backed independence in the ballot, which opponents of secession mostly boycotted. The referendum has plunged Spain into its worst constitutional crisis in decades.

Catalonia is a centre of industry and tourism accounting for a fifth of Spain's economy. Although it has extensive autonomy, its tax revenues are crucial to Spain's state budget.

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has said the vote was valid, raising the prospect that the Catalan parliament could unilaterally declare independence from Spain within days.

Catalonia, Spain's wealthiest region, wedged in the northeast on the Mediterranean coast below the mountainous border with France, has its own language and culture, and a growing minority there has nurtured hopes of independence for years. Madrid says the constitution prohibits secession and can only be changed if all Spaniards, not just Catalans, agree.

A big crowd gathered outside the local headquarters of Spain's ruling Popular Party. Catalan firefighters in their orange jackets and yellow helmets, who have assumed a role as mediators between demonstrators and police, stood between the crowd and police.

"In no way can we accept that they come here with this kind of repression," taxi driver Alejandro Torralbo, 64, said of Sunday's police action.

"They can't do this. What happened on Oct. 1 has fired up independence feeling that will never die," said another demonstrator, 18-year-old student Monica Ventinc.

Normally busy metro stations in Barcelona were deserted as services were cut back sharply, pickets blocked traffic on Gran Via street and traffic on six major highways in the region was disrupted by protests.

Protesters used a large truck to block a highway in El Masnou near Barcelona, painted "general strike" on a road sign and put up a banner reading "Not one step back."

"Today is a day of democratic, civic and dignified protest. Don't let yourselves be carried away by provocations. The world has seen that we are peaceful people," Puigdemont said on Twitter on Tuesday.

Elsewhere in Barcelona, the response to the strike call was patchy with some shops, supermarkets and cafes open and some closed. The Boqueria market in the city was almost empty.

With 95 per cent of the vote counted, authorities said the Yes vote stood at 90.1 per cent, on a turnout of 2.26 million of 5.34 million registered voters.

The Catalan government said almost 900 people were injured when Spanish police forcibly tried to close polling stations.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has defended the police action and said more than 400 police officers needed medical attention.

Scenes of armoured Spanish police swinging truncheons and firing rubber bullets at peaceful voters have been widely condemned, with the European Union calling for talks to break the stalemate between Madrid and Barcelona.

On Sunday, Rajoy said the ballot had failed, while Puigdemont vowed to continue with the independence process.

Puigdemont has called for international mediation in the region's dispute with Madrid.

Spanish stocks remained under pressure and the cost of insuring exposure to Spanish sovereign debt rose to a near five-month high, with many economists and investors anticipating an escalation of tensions in the short term.

Spain's two largest unions, the UGT and CCOO, said on Monday their affiliates in Catalonia would not take part in the general strike, but would support protests.

Spanish Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria said police had told her they had been forced to leave one Catalan town after the local council threatened to exclude them from the hotels where they were staying.

"We aren't going to tolerate mafia-like behaviour from the town councils of Catalonia," she said.

She said Puigdemont and his regional government had lost respect for the democratic process and were showing a flagrant disregard for the law.

"I've seen how President Puigdemont has flooded the streets with his followers to stop people obeying the law and to make them disrespect justice," she said. "We are here to defend the rights and liberties of all Spaniards that have been trampled upon by the regional government."

Many services under the control of the Catalan government saw some stoppages, with public transport running at around 40 per cent, according to reports, while port workers and civil servants also walked out. Entrances to some government offices were blocked by crowds protesting in favour of independence.

In the small Catalan town of Vic, a bastion of independence, every shop, bar and cafe was closed in the town of 40,000 people and stalls were draped with Catalan flags, which also hung from most balconies.

A giant Yes banner hung in the main square, where people were congregating. A neon sign above a closed bar on the square flashed "Hello New Country, Hello New Republic, Hello Europe."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/catalon...ndum-1.4318538

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Old October 4th, 2017, 07:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

As weird as this probably sounds, the best solution to this may actually be an official, government-approved referendum to ensure real results of whether the people of Catalonia truly want independence. If they really do, then the Spanish government won't hugely have much choice but to give in to those demands to a certain degree as they were elected to carry out the wishes of the people.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 08:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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As weird as this probably sounds, the best solution to this may actually be an official, government-approved referendum to ensure real results of whether the people of Catalonia truly want independence. If they really do, then the Spanish government won't hugely have much choice but to give in to those demands to a certain degree as they were elected to carry out the wishes of the people.
I in large part agree with this. There should be a legal route for the Catalonians to gain independence. The problem with this referendum is that it was ran by an unrecognized entity which lacked the power and authority to have large voter participation and effectively tally the votes and act upon the decision. I do believe that true democracies like France presents itself to be should have a legal pathway to independence if there is a large enough demand for it, which is the case in Catalonia. I don't defend the Spanish police's uneeded violence, but there should be a better way to gain independence peacefully than an unofficial vote.
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Old October 4th, 2017, 11:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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As weird as this probably sounds, the best solution to this may actually be an official, government-approved referendum to ensure real results of whether the people of Catalonia truly want independence. If they really do, then the Spanish government won't hugely have much choice but to give in to those demands to a certain degree as they were elected to carry out the wishes of the people.
The best solution would have been not do what they did and let them vote the first time, now letting them having a second referendum would just make things worst with the yes side being angry they just didn't let it happen the first time, and probably piss off the no side too, if Spain let people vote they know the Yes will win. Which is why they didn't want them to vote in the first place. Spain's economy is a train wreck and Catalonia is the only economically healthy part of the country and they are paying for everyone else, which is why they don't want them to leave.

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Old October 4th, 2017, 01:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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Spain's economy is a train wreck and Catalonia is the only economically healthy part of the country and they are paying for everyone else, which is why they don't want them to leave.
Lol, this is so wrong, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.


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Old October 4th, 2017, 01:31 PM   #6
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Lol, this is so wrong, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.
Are you for the independence of Catalonia or against it? Just wondering cause it'd be interesting to hear what a person from the region has to say.

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Old October 4th, 2017, 02:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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Lol, this is so wrong, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.
Tell me where am I wrong?

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Old October 4th, 2017, 02:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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Are you for the independence of Catalonia or against it? Just wondering cause it'd be interesting to hear what a person from the region has to say.
Against. It's illegal under Spain's constituiton, which was approved by a referendum where the "Yes" won by an overwhelming majority (including in Catalonia). It doesn’t contemplate the possibility of secession for any part of Spain. Also, it doesn't contemplate the possibility of a particular territory having a referendum of its own to vote if they want to "leave Spain" or stay. Not that this is particularly relevant, though, since the Constitution can be changed. Catalonia has never been an independent country, they were part of a larger Kingdom called Aragon, so the whole argument "we were independent 1000000 years ago" is just dumb. Also, they claim a right to have their own identity because they have their own language, which (they claim) is surpressed by the Madrid government, and which was heavily censored during Franco's regime (not Rajoy's fault), yet they prohibit the teaching of Spanish in primary schools. They also fine companies who don't use the Catalan language, which is only used by 35% of the population in Catalonia. Furthermore, there are many separatist movements in Spain, if Catalonia gets independence, the Basque Country and probably Galicia would follow really soon, causing mass destabilisation. I also don't believe Catalonia would be well off economically speaking after independence, maybe in the long long term, but definitely not as soon as some separatist movements would make you believe. Catalonia's population is also really divided in this issue, most polls suggest that slightly more people don't want independence comparing to those who want. There's also an uneven distribution, where the poorer rural uneducated areas are more pro-independence, whereas the urban rich areas like Barcelona, Tarragona, Girona are against independence.

Also, let me make clear that I don't agree with the Spanish government's reaction to the Independence movement. The police violence etc may pretty much increase the number of independentists and fuel their passion of becoming independent.

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Tell me where am I wrong?
Spain's economy is not a train wreck (anymore), it has been showing signs of steady recovery for some years now (since 2014). Catalonia is definitely not the only economically healthy part of the country, Community of Madrid has almost the same GDP and much higher GDP per capita. Many other provinces have higher economy growth rates and less unemployment than Catalonia. They are not paying for everyone else (not sure where you got this idea from) and economy reasons are not the only reason why the Spanish government does not want them to leave, they pretty much have absolutely no incentive to do so, nor anything to win from it.


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Old October 5th, 2017, 10:31 AM   #9
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

The conflict takes fairly deep roots int he Spanish Civil War. Before then, the people of Catalonia and several other provinces lived in relative peace with their own limited dissolution of power to govern themselves how they saw fit. That changed under Franco who came down hard and restricted them heavily once again. In a way, the independence movement has basis in the fact that Catalonia has never really felt a part of the main, nationalist Spain and will continue to feel divided from it. Think of it similar to Scotland in the UK. They never really wanted to be part and so that remained and fostered in the independence movement it currently has in the SNP and nationalists there.
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Old October 8th, 2017, 07:09 AM   #10
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

I suppose as I am Spanish I can answer you guys' questions. New data shows that after this, companies are lraving the country and people in favour of the hypothetical independence are retracting themselves. Maybe the other side was right from day one?

Ask away I guess


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Old October 9th, 2017, 05:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

Honestly, I am against it. Also the reasons the pro-independent parties listed are mostly fallacies etc. Like "we give x in taxes to the central government" but forget to mention they get that x back through government investment etc. We are going to have a smilar stuation here in Vojvodina too. Also even if they get a bit less in money from the government than they give, they should not be all pissy about it. I mean, look at Germany. The richer parts are investing into the poorer former East Germany. Economic homogenization is a lot better than having wealth concentrated in one region.

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Old October 15th, 2017, 05:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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I suppose as I am Spanish I can answer you guys' questions. New data shows that after this, companies are lraving the country and people in favour of the hypothetical independence are retracting themselves. Maybe the other side was right from day one?

Ask away I guess
First of all, I'd to know if you are against or in favour of independence and why.


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Old October 18th, 2017, 03:03 PM   #13
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First of all, I'd to know if you are against or in favour of independence and why.
I'm in favour but also against. Let me explain

The for bit: Everyone has their own right to decide their future and choose based on whatever they deem appropriate. Freedom is there for a reason and this is an example of that.

The against bit: "Your freedom ends where mine begins". The law was put in place for a reason. As such, it should be respected at all time, and if it's outdated like these gents are saying, all should sit together and agree on something better like it was done back in the 70's.

My opinion bit: I am totally against this current example of independence. They have their rights to be free yet need to abide by the law. Law states a referendum should be held and we'd need to have all the affected parties vote - which we haven't.
They come from this philosophy in which after independence they'd still play the spanish league, "stop paying for the rest of Spain (link to counterproof)", "remain in the European Union (link to counterproof)", and much more propagandistical nonsense which sadly their people have been led to believe.
With all that proven, seeing how CAT does not contribute heavily to ES like they're saying they do, seeing how they've gotten all the help from the gov ever since the democracy has been in place (just like the Vasque Country), and so on, let me kindly ask them: Are they dumb? Ever since they pseudo-declared they'd do whatever they frigging pleased, this happened (link):


So let us think for a while. Will well known, worldwide economists and companies be wrong, or will a team of a hundred at most be wrong? I certainly, judging by the data we have available, have made my mind already.

Forgot something: Indoctrination. We've seen (me personally, lived in BCN for well over 6 years) how they do it, and how much has it increased now.

"In the playground we talk Catalan":




I could go on and on about this but I might as well let people ask then clarify. I won't get into the police side of things because that's for another thread.

Also, this is worth a read.


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Old October 19th, 2017, 12:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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I'm in favour but also against. Let me explain...
So essentially, in a nutshell, you believe that the Catalonians have a right to legally secede but that this referendum was not the proper way to do it, and that an independent Catalonia would not be the 'paradise' nation Catalonians leaders are promising. Is that what you are basically saying? Because if so I will agree with that opinion.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 02:35 AM   #15
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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So essentially, in a nutshell, you believe that the Catalonians have a right to legally secede but that this referendum was not the proper way to do it, and that an independent Catalonia would not be the 'paradise' nation Catalonians leaders are promising. Is that what you are basically saying? Because if so I will agree with that opinion.
Exactly. Should have summed it up. Do mention me so I remember to elaborate a little later in they day as I'm busy now


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Old October 23rd, 2017, 04:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: Major Protests in Catalonia Over Police Violence During Referendum

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This gave me a good laugh. The Catalans were (I am not sure if they are now) mostly leftists advocating for wealth redistrubution etc, but if it is their wealth being redistributed, they get all pissy about it. Made my morning.

Also that playground picture... What the hell? I mean instilling national concioussness into a people is okay, but this is just wrong because it is exclusionist, not inclusionist.

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