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Old September 22nd, 2017, 06:18 PM   #101
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Default Re: Trump Administration & DOJ sides with Cake-baker who refused to make gay wedding

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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
No; Because that would be ludicrously difficult to keep track of and enforce. It would then be discrimination to allow some stores to discriminate, and others to not.
In my example, it's pretty obvious: there's absolutely no negative consequence to the person that's being discriminated. So I guess that's a valid reason to allow discrimination.

Isn't it discrimination against stores if you prohibit them from discriminating?

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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
The much simpler solution is ban discrimination all together.
Why not allow everyone to discriminate instead?


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Old September 22nd, 2017, 08:53 PM   #102
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In my example, it's pretty obvious: there's absolutely no negative consequence to the person that's being discriminated. So I guess that's a valid reason to allow discrimination.
No, it's not. Just like it's not okay to discriminate against people who's favorite color is red. Or Anyone.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Isn't it discrimination against stores if you prohibit them from discriminating?
Nope. Just like it's not discrimination when we prohibit people from committing any other crime. They are inflicting harm on other people's general well-being.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Why not allow everyone to discriminate instead?
Because they're restricting people's ability to buy goods.

Just because you're a privileged Straight Cis-Male, and you can't possibly see how this would ever effect anyone, doesn't mean that it doesn't actually happen (Because it does, and it just did).

If you believe that stores should be able to discriminate freely, just remember that you're saying that from a place of privilege, where it would most likely never effect you.

But if you have any ability to feel empathy for those less fortunate than you, then just think about how this will effect oppressed minorities, especially in rural bigoted areas.

There's no point further arguing minor details or hypothetical scenarios. I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement. So just agree to disagree.

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Old September 22nd, 2017, 11:58 PM   #103
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Default Re: Trump Administration & DOJ sides with Cake-baker who refused to make gay wedding

I see why Vlerchan finally gave up here. This thread has become so nit-picking and repetitive it is rediculous. I honestly don't want to participate, but VT is so dead right now.

First, you said that the bakery is wrong here because it is breaking some law. The interpretation and consistutionality of such you are presenting is questionable, but let's pretend for a second that you are right. As your argument here is based upon the assumption that Federal law cannot be broken, how do you feel about your state's recent vote to ignore Federal immigration laws and become a sanctuary state? Are they in the wrong for breaking Federal law, just like you are claiming this bakery is? You, my friend, are committing a classic logical fallacy, so I suggest you re-evaluate your argument here.

Secondly, let's get to the real arguments. There is no right for a private entity to force another private entity to do something both parties have not consented to. That is essentially forced servitude, which is outlawed. Consistutionally, there is also no such thing as a right to not be offended or discriminated against by another private entity. In reality, it suggests the opposite via the First Amendment. As anti-PC as it may sound, I do believe that as Americans we do have the right to discriminate. You will probably need a few hours to recover from that.

Let's be realistic here. No minority is ever going to starve or actually suffer in America if companies had the right to refuse service. To insist such is just lies. Even at times when there was government enforced segregation and racism was an accepted thing, you didn't see people starving in the streets. You know why? Because in a capitalist society, there are numerous different providers. Each provider has differing stances, and in our day and age you are almost guaranteed to find a local provider you will serve your group. You and I both know that the vast majority of providers will gladly sell to minority groups. I am probably the most conservative American on the site, even I will gladly serve gays and Muslims. The combination of capitalism and our modern society has essentially guaranteed that all your "mass discrimination" claims are just baseless hyperbole.

And if you've noticed, all of these cases have been based more so around the action than the cucustomer. If you have noticed all these stories of bakeries, flower shops, etc, they are all based around partaking in a gay-wedding, even in an indirect way. These people don't care about serving the gay guy, they care about partaking in an action they see morally reprehensible i.e. gay unions. If you owned a t-shirt company, and some white extremists asked you to make a bunch of matching shirts, which you know that they are going to wear during a protest, would you want to make those shirts? Would you like to, as you liberals put it, "normalize" their behavior by servicing them?

Also, you have clearly never been to the South. Your statement that racism is prevalent in the South is laughable at best and offensive at worse. I've lived in the Old South all my life, in a rural, majority white area. I have never seen anyone even condone racism, nevermind actually engage in it.

I just wanted to say that, I'm not getting involved anymore than this. This thread should already be over honestly. Overall, I just want the choice that values liberty, and forcing others to do your business at government gun-point isn't valuing liberty in the slightest.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 02:00 AM   #104
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First, you said that the bakery is wrong here because it is breaking some law. The interpretation and constitutionality of such you are presenting is questionable, but let's pretend for a second that you are right. As your argument here is based upon the assumption that Federal law cannot be broken,
Nope, my argument is not based on the law, because it's completely legal for this bakery to do so. I am arguing that we change the law.

You just committed, The Strawman Fallacy

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
how do you feel about your state's recent vote to ignore Federal immigration laws and become a sanctuary state? Are they in the wrong for breaking Federal law, just like you are claiming this bakery is? You, my friend, are committing a classic logical fallacy, so I suggest you re-evaluate your argument here.
I don't agree with the Federal immigration law. But yes, they are in the wrong for breaking federal law.

I have committed no logical fallacy.

YOU just committed the logical fallacy of ASSUMING my position, which is another Strawman Fallacy, and Guilt by Association by assuming I agree with everything my state does.

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Secondly, let's get to the real arguments. There is no right for a private entity to force another private entity to do something both parties have not consented to. That is essentially forced servitude, which is outlawed.
The government is not a private entity. The government is supposed to be of the people, by the people, for the people.
The government has the right to force private entities to serve everyone equally in order to protect consumers' ability to buy necessary goods and services which are only available on the private market.
[We're already doing it, it hasn't been ruled unconstitutional since it was implemented 53 years ago]

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Constitutionally, there is also no such thing as a right to not be offended or discriminated against by another private entity. In reality, it suggests the opposite via the First Amendment. As anti-PC as it may sound, I do believe that as Americans we do have the right to discriminate. You will probably need a few hours to recover from that.
I never said that nobody has the right to offend. That's covered in our Freedom of Speech laws. You just made another Strawman Fallacy

The constitution also says that the government shall promote the general welfare of it's people, which should include protecting consumers from discriminatory private businesses.
If people are discriminated against by private businesses, they will be down time, down money, and possibly be unable to buy goods.
All because they are an oppressed minority, and this disadvantage will only further the oppression.

The government and it's people can not sit idly by, while systematic oppression is taking place.

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Let's be realistic here. No minority is ever going to starve or actually suffer in America if companies had the right to refuse service. To insist such is just lies.
I know this is really hard to understand being a privileged Straight White Cis-Male Christian who's never been part of a minority or discriminated against his entire life.
But this actually does effect people, in one way or another. To insist it doesn't is just lies.

You cannot assume that every single person in the United States has a store that is the exact same distance away, that will sell them the exact same goods/services, at the exact same price.
You are assuming that Capitalism is perfect, and nobody is left behind, that's very naive.

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Even at times when there was government enforced segregation and racism was an accepted thing, you didn't see people starving in the streets. You know why? Because in a capitalist society, there are numerous different providers. Each provider has differing stances, and in our day and age you are almost guaranteed to find a local provider you will serve your group. You and I both know that the vast majority of providers will gladly sell to minority groups. I am probably the most conservative American on the site, even I will gladly serve gays and Muslims. The combination of capitalism and our modern society has essentially guaranteed that all your "mass discrimination" claims are just baseless hyperbole.
So as long as people don't die, it's okay to oppress them?
You could care less about minorities having to spend more money, spend more time, and being unable to get what they need, because it will never effect you.

"Almost guaranteed" = Not guaranteed.
I know it's very easy for you to say that businesses should be able to discriminate, because you're not a minority, and you'll never be effected.

But I happen to have enough empathy to be sympathetic to those who will be left at a disadvantage because of someone else's bigotry.

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And if you've noticed, all of these cases have been based more so around the action than the customer. If you have noticed all these stories of bakeries, flower shops, etc, they are all based around partaking in a gay-wedding, even in an indirect way. These people don't care about serving the gay guy, they care about partaking in an action they see morally reprehensible i.e. gay unions. If you owned a t-shirt company, and some white extremists asked you to make a bunch of matching shirts, which you know that they are going to wear during a protest, would you want to make those shirts? Would you like to, as you liberals put it, "normalize" their behavior by servicing them?
I wouldn't want to make them. But I would make them. Because I'm not a hypocrite who would restrict anybody's ability to buy goods or services. [And it's petty that you assume so]

Stop using Guilt by Association against Liberals.

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Also, you have clearly never been to the South. Your statement that racism is prevalent in the South is laughable at best and offensive at worse. I've lived in the Old South all my life, in a rural, majority white area. I have never seen anyone even condone racism, nevermind actually engage in it.
I'm sorry, but there are still active KKK & Neo-Nazi groups in America.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/the-kkk-today/18/ All of those photos are within the last 2 years.

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's very narrow-minded.

You never heard someone talk about "the gays"? Never heard anybody talk about how "marriage should be between a man and a woman"?
I can guarantee you've heard someone use the word "trannie".

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I just wanted to say that, I'm not getting involved anymore than this. This thread should already be over honestly. Overall, I just want the choice that values liberty, and forcing others to do your business at government gun-point isn't valuing liberty in the slightest.
Oh goodie. The old "gun-point" Libertarian appeal to emotion.

I want to take you on a thought experiment:
Our liberty & security is protected by our military & our police force, from threats both foreign and domestic.
Should we be allowed to collect the taxes that fund them "at government gun-point"?

If you answer no, you don't want a military & police, which means you don't value liberty or security.
If you answer yes, you are okay with "forcing others to do your business at government gun-point".

Pick one. You can't have both.

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Old September 23rd, 2017, 03:42 AM   #105
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No, it's not. Just like it's not okay to discriminate against people who's favorite color is red. Or Anyone.
Why is it not okay to discriminate? (here we go... again)

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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Nope. Just like it's not discrimination when we prohibit people from committing any other crime. They are inflicting harm on other people's general well-being.
No harm is being done in my scenario.

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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Because they're restricting people's ability to buy goods.
Not in my scenario. You haven't given a single reason why discrimination shouldn't be allowed in my scenario. All you can say is that it's bad so it should be illegal.

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Just because you're a privileged Straight Cis-Male, and you can't possibly see how this would ever effect anyone, doesn't mean that it doesn't actually happen (Because it does, and it just did).

If you believe that stores should be able to discriminate freely, just remember that you're saying that from a place of privilege, where it would most likely never effect you.

But if you have any ability to feel empathy for those less fortunate than you, then just think about how this will effect oppressed minorities, especially in rural bigoted areas.
Lol man, really?

What do you know about me or my life? Why do you assume I'm straight? Why do you assume I'm cisgender? Why do you assume I'm privileged? Isn't that a fallacy, assuming someone is something? Do you even realise I might have gone through really bad stuff during all my life? That I might have been discriminated, and oppressed? Do you realise how hypocritical you sound when you undermine my argument by saying I don't have the necessary empathy to realise how other people have it worse than me?


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Old September 23rd, 2017, 03:51 AM   #106
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Default Re: Trump Administration & DOJ sides with Cake-baker who refused to make gay wedding

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Why is it not okay to discriminate? (here we go... again)
Because in a capitalistic economy, private businesses are the only way to obtain goods and services, they can not be allowed to discriminate; they would be restricting other people's means of obtaining goods.

You have yet to come up with any logical argument refuting this fundamental point.

You have only provided a perfect-world scenario in which my scenario "could" allow discrimination because "it wouldn't effect anyone".
That is not an argument, that is nit-picking.

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No harm is being done in my scenario.

Not in my scenario. You haven't given a single reason why discrimination shouldn't be allowed in my scenario. All you can say is that it's bad so it should be illegal.
Your scenario is a Perfect-World Scenario and would only apply to a store which has the EXACT same goods and services, at the EXACT same prices, and would only apply to people who the EXACT same distance away from each store. Even then, by getting refused, you will waste time going to the other store. No, not everyone has a phone to call ahead.

It's a ridiculous suggestion and the easier solution is to ban discrimination all together.

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Lol man, really?

What do you know about me or my life? Why do you assume I'm straight? Why do you assume I'm cisgender? Why do you assume I'm privileged? Isn't that a fallacy, assuming someone is something? Do you even realize I might have gone through really bad stuff during all my life? That I might have been discriminated, and oppressed? Do you realize how hypocritical you sound when you undermine my argument by saying I don't have the necessary empathy to realize how other people have it worse than me?
I assumed nothing. Because you are a Straight Cis-gendered Christian Male, you are not an oppressed minority which this is most likely to effect. That is privilege.

Are you discriminated & oppressed? Have you ever been discriminated for being straight? For being a male? For being cisgendered? For being Christian?
...I don't think so.

I never said you didn't have empathy. I told you to use your empathy to put yourself in the shoes of the oppressed minority who will be discriminated against.
Something you've never had to do because of your privilege.

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Old September 23rd, 2017, 04:06 AM   #107
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Default Re: Trump Administration & DOJ sides with Cake-baker who refused to make gay wedding

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Because in a capitalistic economy, private businesses are the only way to obtain goods and services, they can not be allowed to discriminate; they would be restricting other people's means of obtaining goods.

You have yet to come up with any logical argument refuting this fundamental point.

You have only provided a perfect-world scenario in which my scenario "could" allow discrimination because "it wouldn't effect anyone".
That is not an argument, that is nit-picking.


Your scenario is a Perfect-World Scenario and would only apply to a store which has the EXACT same goods and services, at the EXACT same prices, and would only apply to people who the EXACT same distance away from each store. Even then, by getting refused, you will waste time going to the other store. No, not everyone has a phone to call ahead.

It's a ridiculous suggestion and the easier solution is to ban discrimination all together.


I assumed nothing. Because you are a Straight Cis-gendered Christian Male, you are not an oppressed minority which this is most likely to effect. That is privilege.

Are you discriminated & oppressed? Have you ever been discriminated for being straight? For being a male? For being cisgendered? For being Christian?
...I don't think so.

I never said you didn't have empathy. I told you to use your empathy to put yourself in the shoes of the oppressed minority who will be discriminated against.
Something you've never had to do because of your privilege.
Whatever, I give up. You know what? You're right. It's just better if we agree to disagree. This debate ended in the worst possible manner, when you decided to assume my sexual orientation, my religion and my gender identity, and use that to attack me. This is ridiculous, and the blame is definitely on me because I decided to keep debating with you. Goodbye, you won't be quoted by me ever again.


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Old September 23rd, 2017, 04:26 AM   #108
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Whatever, I give up. You know what? You're right. It's just better if we agree to disagree. This debate ended in the worst possible manner, when you decided to assume my sexual orientation, my religion and my gender identity, and use that to attack me. This is ridiculous, and the blame is definitely on me because I decided to keep debating with you. Goodbye, you won't be quoted by me ever again.
I never assumed anything. You are straight. You are Christian. You are a Cisgendered Male. Those are easily obtainable from your profile and posts.
That gives you the privilege in this scenario because you are infinitely less likely to be discriminated against than an oppressed minority.

I NEVER used that to attack you, or to try to make your view-point null. And I'm sorry if you feel that way.
I simply asked that you realize you are talking from a place of privilege (because your suggestion will almost certainly never effect you), and that you should try to empathize with those less fortunate than you.

I'm glad we can finally agree to disagree. In more than 100 replies, you have yet to come up with a solid logical argument against my fundamental claim. I suggested on post 60 that we just stop.

Feel free to quote me again anytime if you have a good logical argument. I'm always glad to have a civil debate.

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Old September 25th, 2017, 06:27 AM   #109
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Default Re: Trump Administration & DOJ sides with Cake-baker who refused to make gay wedding

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So your entire argument is to hide the fact that you're an oppressed minority? That just strengthens oppression; Way to push us back into the shadows.
I was discriminated because of my political views etc. because I wore my uniform. I was a skinhead. You know when everyone started looking at me normally again? When I let my hair grow back and started dressing "normally".

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What if it was black discrimination? Now answer all of my responses again.
Same. If it was black, white, Jewish, Christian, straight or any other kind if discrimination, I would not care. If you want to run your private business like that, sure, but do not complain if you are doing bad because of those policies.

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So you're using a hypothetical scenario in which the person is able to phone ahead to ask, and will have another store that will sell to him at the same price, and is the same distance away.
No, I just make suggestions about what you can do to evade this problem.

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So I'm going to use the hypothetical scenario in which they don't have a phone, the next store is 50 miles away, and it's going to cost more money.
A business that does not have a phone or any way of reaching them without actually going to it (e-mail, social media, phone...) is not a serious business.

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You're a Straight White-Skinned Male living in his native country. You have no idea what it's like to be oppressed.
How do you know that? I was a skinhead and when I was attacked for who I was, the police thought I was the culprit just because of my shaved head and boots. Opression can be colorblind and blind to sexual orientation, you know?

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You had the opportunity to walk a couple blocks down the street to another store. Many people don't have that luxury.
True, but my point was why would I force my hard-earned money into the hands of somebody who denied me service.

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If a business set up a store in the Southern United States, they would have absolutely no problem staying afloat while denying service to black people. Racism is still rampant there.
Like I said if a business discriminates anyone, I don't care, just do not cry when it starts running you into the ground.

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Old September 25th, 2017, 09:37 AM   #110
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I was discriminated because of my political views etc. because I wore my uniform. I was a skinhead. You know when everyone started looking at me normally again? When I let my hair grow back and started dressing "normally".
So you should understand why we shouldn't force people to hide themselves in order to escape discrimination.

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A business that does not have a phone or any way of reaching them without actually going to it (e-mail, social media, phone...) is not a serious business.
Not every consumer has a phone or computer. Nobody is going to expect to be discriminated against and call ahead to ask that.

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How do you know that? I was a skinhead and when I was attacked for who I was, the police thought I was the culprit just because of my shaved head and boots. Oppression can be colorblind and blind to sexual orientation, you know?
I know that from your profile. I'm sorry. That is discrimination though, not oppression.

You were able to stop the discrimination by changing your hair-style and clothing, even if you didn't want to.

Black people, Women, Gay people, Trans people. They don't have that luxury.

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True, but my point was why would I force my hard-earned money into the hands of somebody who denied me service.
You specifically? You have no reason, you can just walk around the block.
Other people can't do that.

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Like I said if a business discriminates anyone, I don't care, just do not cry when it starts running you into the ground.
This isn't about the business losing money, this is about consumers not being able to get the shit they need or want at the same price as everyone else, with the same effort as everybody else.

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Old September 26th, 2017, 08:40 AM   #111
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So you should understand why we shouldn't force people to hide themselves in order to escape discrimination.
Yes, but enforcing political correctness has the counter-effect.

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Not every consumer has a phone or computer. Nobody is going to expect to be discriminated against and call ahead to ask that.
Payphones? I mean there are a million ways to communicate if you do not have the means in your home.

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I know that from your profile. I'm sorry. That is discrimination though, not oppression.
Discrimination is a form of opression. In my case it was a form of institutional discrimination, where I was denied certain protections and rights by government institutions. Another state I can name which did that is South Africa, but their discrimination was based on racism and opressing blacks.

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You were able to stop the discrimination by changing your hair-style and clothing, even if you didn't want to.

Black people, Women, Gay people, Trans people. They don't have that luxury.
Well, all ecept the blacks can do that. If you put me and you next to eachother, we are both human. The homo detector doesn't exist. Also I am pretty sure that in the most of the South racism is not a thing anymore or has been supressed into the shadows.



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You specifically? You have no reason, you can just walk around the block.
Other people can't do that.
Yes because I live in the city, but if I lived in the rural areas, I would have to go elsewhere too. If I didn't live in the capital the things I could buy would be greatly reduced by a sharp drop in buying power and access to products.

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This isn't about the business losing money, this is about consumers not being able to get the shit they need or want at the same price as everyone else, with the same effort as everybody else.
I agree with you that discrimination is a dumb thing, but if businesses want to deny service to someone, let them. This isn't a discussion about facts but a discussion about individual morality.

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Old September 26th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Yes, but enforcing political correctness has the counter-effect.
This is not political correctness. This is about securing the right of the consumer to be able to purchase goods & services without paying exorbitant prices, or being forced to go somewhere much further away.

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Payphones? I mean there are a million ways to communicate if you do not have the means in your home.
So people who are discriminated will end up having to go to a payphone which takes time, pay for the payphone which costs money, and then maybe end up going to a different store which takes more time, and more money. Or they may not even be able to get what they were initially trying to get.

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Well, all except the blacks can do that. If you put me and you next to each other, we are both human. The homo detector doesn't exist. Also I am pretty sure that in the most of the South racism is not a thing anymore or has been suppressed into the shadows.
Well let's just narrow this down to black discrimination then, because you have a hard time following it otherwise with your irrelevant "homo-detector".

Black people should not have to waste more time, pay more money, and possibly be unable to get what they want, just because they're black.

There are still 'many' active KKK, Neo-Nazi, Neo-Confederate, White Nationalist, Anti-LGBT, Anti-Muslim groups. Racism still exists.
https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

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Yes because I live in the city, but if I lived in the rural areas, I would have to go elsewhere too. If I didn't live in the capital the things I could buy would be greatly reduced by a sharp drop in buying power and access to products.
Exactly.

So you realize how if you lived in a rural area (where discrimination is more prevalent), then being discriminated against could have a very costly effect on you. It could be another 20 miles to the next store. It could cost an extra $10. You could be unable to get what you want. All because of a business owner's "individual morality".

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I agree with you that discrimination is a dumb thing, but if businesses want to deny service to someone, let them. This isn't a discussion about facts but a discussion about individual morality.
So reject facts and appeal to individual morality. Okay.

Nazis believe in Positive Christianity. They see Jews as a parasite on the world, and evil. It is in their individual morality that they exterminate them.
Forget about the facts, we have to appeal to their individual morality. Let the Nazis exterminate!

That is where we get with your logic. Not quiet moral equivalent, but same idea.

We don't let Nazis exterminate because they're killing other people.
We protect Jews from Nazis' "individual morality".

We shouldn't let business owners discriminate, because they are making people waste more time, pay more money, and possibly be unable to obtain the goods or services that they're trying to get.
We should protect consumers from business owners' "individual morality".

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Old September 26th, 2017, 10:34 PM   #113
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so go to a different bakery, big deal. it might not be right but what are you gonna stand there and say, "you HAVE to make me a cake you have no choice!!!!!!" there are 6 different bakeries in every city, christ.
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Old September 27th, 2017, 02:48 AM   #114
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so go to a different bakery, big deal. it might not be right but what are you gonna stand there and say, "you HAVE to make me a cake you have no choice!!!!!!" there are 6 different bakeries in every city, christ.
And if you're not in the city? If you're in a rural area (where most discrimination takes place)? This isn't just about bakeries, this is about private businesses discriminating.

What if the next bakery, store, restaurant, etc. was 20 miles away? And it was going to cost extra money. Now you may not even be able to get what you wanted to get.

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Old September 27th, 2017, 01:54 PM   #115
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And if you're not in the city? If you're in a rural area (where most discrimination takes place)? This isn't just about bakeries, this is about private businesses discriminating.

What if the next bakery, store, restaurant, etc. was 20 miles away? And it was going to cost extra money. Now you may not even be able to get what you wanted to get.
man i live in a rural area, i know what it's like to drive 50 miles to buy jeans. it'd be very unfortunate for the darling couple but it's ridiculous to demand that someone make you a cake if they strictly don't want to. i'm all for anti-discrimination laws within government or public operations, but private businesses are a different story.

how would you legislate "YOU MUST BAKE CAKES TO EVERYONE WILLING TO PAY!!!!! >"
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Old September 27th, 2017, 02:09 PM   #116
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How would you legislate "YOU MUST BAKE CAKES TO EVERYONE WILLING TO PAY!!!!! >"
Hmm... Just like this: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUT...E-78-Pg241.pdf
Easier to read: http://civilrights.findlaw.com/enfor...ve-relief.html

All you have to do is include Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity. Easy.

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Old October 4th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #117
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Hmm... Just like this: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUT...E-78-Pg241.pdf
Easier to read: http://civilrights.findlaw.com/enfor...ve-relief.html

All you have to do is include Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity. Easy.
I'm sorry for quoting you and bumping this thread again. I know I told you I wouldn't be quoting you anymore after you wrongly assumed I'm a straight white cisgender Catholic belonging-to-a-majority never-was-discriminated man, so I'm now publicly apologising for having broken my promise. Technically, I could have just replied without quoting you, but I wasn't sure if you'd see my post.

Anyway, a few days ago, while taking a shower, I thought of another scenario I could use to counter your arguments and I want to know your opinion on it (although I'm pretty sure what your answer will be).

So, imagine a small town in Mississippi that has a hypermarket (like Walmart, for instance) that sells a wide variety of products, from food, to houseware, to clothes, etc... Imagine that town has around 1000 inhabitants, and 100 of them are black people. That hypermarket decides to refuse service to black people. You are the governor of Mississippi and you create a law that states that absolutely no one can be discriminated for any reason whatsoever. However, the owner of that hypermarket refuses to sell their stuff to black people, so the police are on their way to shut down the hypermarket. What do you think of this?


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Old October 4th, 2017, 05:09 PM   #118
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I'm sorry for quoting you and bumping this thread again. I know I told you I wouldn't be quoting you anymore after you wrongly assumed I'm a straight white cisgender Catholic belonging-to-a-majority never-was-discriminated man, so I'm now publicly apologising for having broken my promise. Technically, I could have just replied without quoting you, but I wasn't sure if you'd see my post.
I think you completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. I didn`t say it in order to discredit you. I said it to make you think.

It`s easier for you to say that stores should be allowed to discriminate, because it would almost certainly never effect you.
If you were Black, Female, gay, transgendered, Muslim, etc. You would be much more likely to be discriminated against.

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Anyway, a few days ago, while taking a shower, I thought of another scenario I could use to counter your arguments and I want to know your opinion on it (although I'm pretty sure what your answer will be).

So, imagine a small town in Mississippi that has a hypermarket (like Walmart, for instance) that sells a wide variety of products, from food, to houseware, to clothes, etc... Imagine that town has around 1000 inhabitants, and 100 of them are black people. That hypermarket decides to refuse service to black people. You are the governor of Mississippi and you create a law that states that absolutely no one can be discriminated for any reason whatsoever. However, the owner of that hypermarket refuses to sell their stuff to black people, so the police are on their way to shut down the hypermarket. What do you think of this?
That's perfectly fine. Either they sell to everybody, or they lose their business.

You're going to make the argument that the other 900 people won't have a store to go to now.

I will make the argument that the 100 people never had a store to go to in the first place.

If we let them discriminate, and a new store sets up to "fill the gap" as you say. That store will get less business, less customers, have less supplies, and have higher prices, all due to an already established competition.
That store can sell to the black people at whatever price they want because they have no other choice.
So the 100 people will get less of the stuff they need, and pay more.

If we don't let them discriminate, then the store has two options.
A.) They keep discriminating, and their business gets shut down. This is extremely unlinkely as they really don't want to lose their business. But even if they did, now new stores can set up without having a super strong competition already in place. Win-Win. Lose for the discriminatory business.

B.) They stop discriminating, keep their business, and everybody is allowed to shop there. This is the most likely situation, and the ultimate win-win.

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Old October 4th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #119
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If we let them discriminate, and a new store sets up to "fill the gap" as you say. That store will get less business, less customers, have less supplies, and have higher prices, all due to an already established competition.
That store can sell to the black people at whatever price they want because they have no other choice.
So the 100 people will get less of the stuff they need, and pay more.
I wasn't going to mention there would be another store to fill the gap. Although, wouldn't that happen in any isolated community, regardless of discrimination or not? Imagine a hypermarket in a very populous city with lots of competition selling stuff at lower prices because, since it's a big city, they have lots of other hypermarkets and lots of competition. Now imagine an hypermarket that sells the same stuff, in a rural town, with 1000 inhabitants that have no other place to go other than that hypermarket, and they sell that stuff at higher prices because they know people from that town will have to go there. How do you feel about this?

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If we don't let them discriminate, then the store has two options.
A.) They keep discriminating, and their business gets shut down. This is extremely unlinkely as they really don't want to lose their business. But even if they did, now new stores can set up without having a super strong competition already in place. Win-Win. Lose for the discriminatory business.

B.) They stop discriminating, keep their business, and everybody is allowed to shop there. This is the most likely situation, and the ultimate win-win.
You have come up with laws but you haven't come up with sanctions for people who break your laws, and I mean sanctions independent from people's freedom of choice which, by the way, is irrelevant. In the scenario I pictured, would you shut down the hypermarket? Please answer with yes or no.

Let me remind you that I don't know which one is the most racist US state. I mentioned Mississippi because that state would be the one I would pick as the most racist, but contrary to you, I'm not a US citizen. Regardless, imagine we're talking about a very racist conservative rural town in a Deep South state, do you think it's easy to convince someone who has lived all their life there not to be racist? Do you think there is no racism in the USA to the point that no one would discriminate against blacks, contrary to the discrimination against gays that you initially mentioned in the first post (the cake thing)?


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Old October 5th, 2017, 12:15 AM   #120
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curious to know if there are any actual documented statistics showing that discrimination takes place MORE in rural areas...

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