Thread: Religion
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Old April 19th, 2010, 09:45 AM  
Apparitions
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Name: Dan
Join Date: February 25, 2009
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Default Re: Religion

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Originally Posted by INFERNO View Post
Since you want to debate, I'll jump in. Your argument is rejected for several reasons. First, you have not defined what a religion is. Some say it needs a deity, some say it doesn't. Without defining it, your argument is based on a concept without a definition and one that nobody (other than yourself) can address.
OK then, religion can and cannot have a deity. I think a religion involves beliefs in how the universe works and its nature and whatever. For example, some believe that there is a higher being such as 'God' that created the universe and all life forms in it and controls/monitors/has influence over the things that happen in the universe. Some do not believe in a higher being and have some beliefs about how people should live their lives. An example of this is LaVeyan Satanism (not Theistic Satanism or Luciferianism which believes in the devil and worships it as far as I know) which I believe does not believe in God or the Devil, instead believing that a person is his own God and he should treat himself as such. A good website on LaVeyan Satanism is http://web.satanism101.com/. I sympathise with LaVeyan Satanism, it is a very interesting religion. So then, there's your definition that you can work on.

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Originally Posted by INFERNO View Post
Second, what sort of "proof" is necessary? Humans cannot show anything is 100% true/false due to insufficient knowledge, so we must suffice for a diminished proof. What is that to you?
Yes, there is no way that religion can be proved or disproved but this is not a reason to take one up. I do not understand what you mean by 'diminished proof'. Explain this please. I think if God or whatever showed himself to us then that would be the proof I need to get to my local church or mosque or whatever and repent. Until then I refuse to believe that something like it exists. Anyway what kind of God that is supposed to love us lets us blow each other up and do all kinds of horrible things? I know he is supposed to give us free will be there must be a time where he/she/it steps in and says that's enough. Even sending a saviour would help to stop the bad things in the world. If people saw that God does exist then they would try and live better lives as they would know that they could be punished for their 'sins'. Why not give us proof of its existence?

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Originally Posted by INFERNO View Post
Third, what is your argument(s)? You have only provided a conclusion with no premise and no argument. It's an unfounded, flimsy statement. With no argument, I don't know why or how you have reached your conclusion and so even if I wanted to support your claim, I cannot because we may differ on the arguments used to reach said claim. If you stated it in previous posts, I'm not going to go on a scavenger hunt to find your argument(s) amongst the numerous other posts.
My argument is that the idea of a God came from many many years ago when people worshipped the Sun because it gave them warmth and light, helped their food to grow and kept them safe from some kind of predator. If there was no Sun then no life would exist on this planet. Because of this they made the Sun into a God figure and worshipped it. They believed that day = good and night = evil (because of their vulnerability at night when they were at risk from predators and the coldness and darkness of night), giving us our basic good versus evil thing that is the foundation of many religions today. All this is proved by drawings and hieroglyphics left over from then. My other argument is that religion is purely astrologically based. There is an interesting thing that I saw on a video about religion. Think of Christianity and Jesus' birth and the three kings, the star in the sky and the Virgin Mary, the birth on December 25th etc etc (many other Gods also share these basic characteristics. They can't all be right, surely?). The idea comes from a constellation of three stars that show up around Christmas time. They have been called by people from many years ago as the Three Kings. Now keep that in mind and think of the 'Star in the East' at Jesus' birth. This is actually a star called Sirius which is the brightest star in the night sky. Around Christmas time (I think it is December 24th) this star aligns with the three stars in Orion's belt that I talked about earlier. Three stars = three kings following the star in the sky. Do you understand what this means? Also, the three kings and Sirius point directly to the sun rising on December 25th, therefore pointing to the birth of the Sun. This is where the birth of Jesus and many others comes in. See? Purely astrological. Now, the idea of a virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus. The virgin Mary is the constellation Virgo (aka Virgo the Virgin or the House of Bread). The representation/drawing of Virgo is a woman holding a sheaf of wheat, which I'm sure you know bread comes from. Now, Bethlehem translates to House of Bread, which shows a reference to Virgo, a lace in the sky not on Earth. As you should know the Sun is in the sky for longer around Summer and shorter in Autumn and shorter in Winter. The days get shorter from Summer to Winter as well and the crops do not grow as well. This symbolises death and the death of the Sun. By Christmas time the Sun is at its lowest point. Interestingly for three days (Dec 22 - Dec 24) the Sun does not get any lower and is in the vicinity of the southern cross constellation. But on Dec 25 it rises a little signalling longer and warmer days and the growth of crops etc. And so the Sun died on the cross, was dead for three days and rose again. This is Jesus' and many other Sun gods death and resurrection. It is again purely astrological. Christianity at least very much comes from Astrological events. The idea of Jesus being born by Virgin Mary, having tree kings follow the star to witness his birth and him dying and being resurrected after three days is symbolical of these Astrological events. This information comes from Zeitgeist, a free to view movie which is highly enlightening and will have you question the supposed 'information' told to us by our religions.

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Originally Posted by INFERNO View Post
Fourth, I presume you agree with me in that we cannot use any of our 7 main bodily senses to sense a theistic being, so how can we provide proof for or against? If we turn to holy texts for certain beliefs, there's immense ambiguity and uncertainty as to what they mean and how they should be practiced.
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Lastly, why is significant proof or proof beyond a reasonable doubt needed? If the belief comforts people, then why do we need to have them provide proof? What does it matter? Besides, suppose the above 4 problems are all addressed, what is the implication or usage of the outcome of the argument? If it's concluded that there are gods, so what, people believed in the past anyways but if it's concluded there are no gods, so what, that was continuously said and people still believed?
This covers both your fourth and last questions. I do agree with you when you say that you cannot use our senses to prove the existence of a God or higher being. This does not men that we should assume that there is a God though. If I told you that there is a flying pizza in a place called Heaven and that this religion shares many of the features of Christianity you couldn't prove me wrong as you cannot use your sense to disprove this. You would say that it is impossible for a pizza to be a God etc but why should people think it is possible that we have a creator who watches everything we do and when we die we are judged and send to be persecuted and tortured in Hell or live in paradise in Heaven? Explain this please. I know that people are comforted by religion and I respect this but if anyone started believing in something (not religion) this complex and whatever then they would probably be called delusional. Why is religion different? People should be left to their beliefs but why can't I try to disprove them?
Have fun answering this, I spent ages doing this so it would be nice to have it responded to. BTW out of interest are you religious or are you atheist/agnostic?


Last edited by Apparitions; April 19th, 2010 at 11:38 AM.
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