Thread: Religion
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Old January 1st, 2015, 04:48 PM  
Arkansasguy
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Join Date: December 29, 2014
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Default Re: Religion

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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
So if a) time started with the formation of the universe so b) the universe has existed 'forever' and c) no time existed before the universe was formed so d) nothing existed before the universe then e) it is intuitively not necessary that the universe have a cause.
If the universe is of finite age it did not exist forever. Keep in mind there are two ways to speak of forever, as simply a continuation of a finite amount of time without limitation, or as a state of eternity, not subject to time on account of not being intrinsically subject to change. We agree that it is absurd to say the universe existed forever in the former sense, and I assume you will agree that it would be absurd to claim that the universe existed forever in the second sense, since the universe is subject to time. What I'm saying is that God existed forever, in the second sense, "before" creating the universe.

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I don't see why something being unnecessary means it can't have happened.
If course unnecessary things can happen, but they require a cause so that they happen rather than not happen.

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I don't get how this must necessarily logically follow.

I would imagine if I was speaking to a Deist I would be getting different answers.
God created the laws of the universe. Keep in mind that God, not being subject to time, would be of one un hanging will, so when we speak of God changing or violating the laws of the universe, he would have always intended to do so. Since God created the laws of the universe, he could have made them such that they would change or be violated at some time.

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How does this 'necessitate' omniscentience?

How also do we know he is of the 'utmost intelligence'?
We know he is of utmost intelligence due to him containing the perfection of all goods. Also, we know he is intelligent simply, since an unintelligent being could not create intelligent beings. Since he is intelligent, and since he is omnipotent, he necessarily must be omniscient.

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Just so we are clear I didn't see a response to god not needing be an influential cause but just a cause.
See the second and third paragraphs.
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