Thread: Religion
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Old August 23rd, 2014, 07:35 PM  
Left Now
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Name: Alireza
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Default Re: Religion

Originally Posted by Lovelife090994 View Post
I can't believe you still ignore the history! The Crusade? Heard of it? It happened from Muslims invading the Holy Land and killing scores of Christians and Jews. Also, Muslims tried invading Spain and France so how'd Europe respond? The Crusades, but this didn't work well.
Sorry,you don't have any evidence and you are still trying to claim that your own idea about Islam is exactly what it is while it's not.

Crusades first happened because Byzantine Emperor asked help from his arch enemy Pope against Seljuk Sultan Alp Arsalan,not because of Muslim raids in Europe and Occupation of Holy Lands by Muslims,these very only things which helped Crusades happen easier not the main idea of them.I have evidence for that.Do you?

Lock Routledge Companion pp. 306–308

Mayer Crusades pp. 6–7

n 1074 the Byzantine Emperor Michael VII sent a request for military aid to Pope Gregory VII, but although Gregory appears to have considered leading an expedition to aid Michael, nothing reached the planning stage.The Eastern Empire faced difficulties in the Danube river area, as the Pechenegs had allied with the Seljuq Turks and threatened the Empire until 1091, when they were defeated by Emperor Alexios I Komnenos.

In 1095 Alexios sent envoys to the west requesting military assistance against the Seljuqs. Alexios needed to reinforce his tagmata, so the embassy probably sought to recruit mercenaries and may have exaggerated the dangers facing the Eastern Empire in order to secure the needed troops.The message was received by Pope Urban II at the Council of Piacenza. In November Urban called the Council of Clermont to discuss the matter, further urging the bishops and abbots whom he addressed directly to bring with them the prominent lords in their provinces. The Council lasted from 19 to 28 November, attended by nearly 300 clerics from throughout France. Urban discussed the Cluniac reforms of the Church and extended the excommunication of Philip I of France. Urban spoke for the first time about the problems in the east on 27 November, promoting the struggle of western Christians against the Muslims who had occupied the Holy Land and were attacking the Eastern Roman Empire. There are six main sources of information on the Council: the anonymous Gesta Francorum ("The Deeds of the Franks" dated c. 1100/1101),which influenced all versions of the speech, except that by Fulcher of Chartres who was present at the council; Robert the Monk, who may have been present; as well as Baldric, archbishop of Dol, and Guibert de Nogent, who were not present at the council. All the accounts were written much later following different literary traditions and differ greatly.
Roman Christians were suppressing Jews and ruining their temples and shrines in Holy Lands and forced them to leave while Muslims let them get back and repaired their holy places and temples in Palestine.I have evidence.Do you?

Gil, Moshe (1997). A History of Palestine, 634–1099. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press

Following the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem, Jews were once again allowed to live and practice their religion in Jerusalem, 8 years after their massacre by the Byzantines and nearly 500 years after their expulsion from Judea by the Roman Empire

Muslims invaded whole Spain and southern France for a period of time and according to numerous historical books and sources,most of Muslim dynasties which ruled over Iberia and later south Iberia and Cordoba and Granada were really tolerant of other religions unlike Spaniard Catholic Christians who started inquisitive missions for clearing every non-Christian religion from Iberia.I have evidence.Do you?

Jayyusi. The legacy of Muslim Spain

The non-Muslims were given the status of ahl al-dhimma (the people under protection), with adults paying a "Jizya" tax, equal to one dinar per year with exemptions for old people, women, children, and the disabled. Those who were neither Christians nor Jews, such as Pagans, were given the status of Majus.
Jews constituted more than five percent of the population.Al-Andalus was a key centre of Jewish life during the early Middle Ages, producing important scholars and one of the most stable and wealthy Jewish communities. Bernard Lewis takes issue with this view, arguing its modern use is ahistorical and apologetic. He argues that Islam traditionally did not offer equality nor even pretended to, and that it would have been both a "theological as well as a logical absurdity.However, even Bernard Lewis states:

Generally, the Jewish people were allowed to practice their religion and live according to the laws and scriptures of their community. Furthermore, the restrictions to which they were subject were social and symbolic rather than tangible and practical in character. That is to say, these regulations served to define the relationship between the two communities, and not to oppress the Jewish population.
Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam (1984)
The Caliphate treated non-Muslims differently at different times. The longest period of tolerance began after 912 with the reign of Abd-ar-Rahman III and his son, Al-Hakam II, when the Jews of Al-Andalus prospered, devoting themselves to the service of the Caliphate of Córdoba, to the study of the sciences, and to commerce and industry, especially trading in silk and slaves, in this way promoting the prosperity of the country. Southern Iberia became an asylum for the oppressed Jews of other countries
However, massacres of dhimmis (Christians,Jews,Zoroastrians) are rare in Islamic history.
Lewis, Bernard (1987) [1984], The Jews of Islam

Fatimid Caliphate and Buyyid Government of Tabaristan were two major Shia Muslim nations which in both of them non-Muslims were allowed to hold offices and being involved in political matters of Muslims.Especially Fatimid Caliphate was infamous for its great religious tolerance for Egyptian Christians,Orthodox Christians and Jews.I have an evidence for it.

Goldschmidt 84-86

Unlike other governments in the area, advancement in Fatimid state offices was based more on merit than on heredity. Members of other branches of Islam, like the Sunnis, were just as likely to be appointed to government posts as Shiites. Tolerance was extended to non-Muslims such as Christians and Jews,who occupied high levels in government based on ability, and tolerance.
What do you have to say about this one?Jews of Jerusalem fought side by side of Muslims against Crusaders in Crusades!I have an evidence for it.Do you?

Brown, Michael L. Our Hands Are Stained with Blood: The Tragic Story of the "Church" and the Jewish People

Jews fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend Jerusalem against the Crusaders.Saint Louis University Professor Thomas Madden, author of A Concise History of the Crusades, claims the "Jewish Defenders" of the city knew the rules of warfare and retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death" since the Crusaders had breached the outer walls. According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."One modern-day source even claims the Crusaders "[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing 'Christ We Adore Thee!' with their Crusader crosses held high."However, a contemporary Jewish communication does not corroborate the report that Jews were actually inside of the Synagogue when it was set fire.This letter was discovered among the Cairo Geniza collection in 1975 by historian Shelomo Dov Goitein.Historians believe that it was written just two weeks after the siege, making it "the earliest account on the conquest in any language."However, all sources agree that a synagogue was indeed burned during the siege.

[QUOTE]The fall of Constantinople afterwards with a long siege and later sacking of the Orthodox Church the Hagia Sophia which was never returned but instead defamed and converted to a mosque. [/quote
Do you understand that Constantinople fell into hands of Ottoman Turks who at the same time were fighting four other different Muslim nations?Mamluks in Egypt,Shias in Lebanon and Iraq,other Muslims in Persia.So don't blame it on Islam,blame it on Turks.And I still know Hagia Sophia as a Church not a mosque.Not only me,but also many other Islamic sources.Because Hagia Sophia was a Church at first and according to Islamic Principles,Muslims are not allowed to change Churches and Kanisas into Mosques.

Even closer to now be it in Myanmar with Buddhists versus Muslims or Muslims versus the world Islam has proven time and time again to be against the world.

Graphic, explicit and inappropriate imagery removed. ~Typhlosion

Muslims are getting massacred innocently and you are just supporting those who are committing genocide?Yet you blame Muslims for their being killed only because of being Muslims?I only can get one thing from it.A GREAT DOUBLE STANDARD.
Islam isn't peaceful
Your opinion.

it is not a religion of freedom
It is a religion of constitutional freedom.

The Social Laws must not be broken.

the women are property in Islam, in Islam a man is to take virgins and to take his bride regardless.
You have no evidence proving that women are properties in Islam,you yourself know this too and yet you are insisting on forcing your own view of Islam on others.

And about the rest,I really didn't get what you said above would you please type a little clearer and simpler?

Also in Islam leaving the faith is punishable by death. You know this I hope but you're ignoring it
Leaving the faith is not punishable by death if you didn't know,but trying to provoke the Islamic Society by breaking Islamic Social Laws and making tensions in Islamic Society is.You can convert if you like and announce it,but you are not allowed to disturb others' faiths and try to make tensions in society.

And why should I quote a book you obviously know so well?
Because you are claiming something and to prove it,you have to bring proofs and evidences,which as I can see you haven't.

Last edited by Typhlosion; August 23rd, 2014 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Graphic/violent imagery removed.
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