July 23rd, 2014, 02:55 PM
Name: Citizen Kane
Join Date: December 11, 2012
Location: USA, Xanadu
Re: ** Ask ALL Cut / Uncut Questions HERE **
I cannot believe I'm dredging something up from last year, but I was going over old posts where I was quoted and would like to make a few final points. I have color coded so people can match my rebuttals.
Originally Posted by GuillaumeBordeaux
AND under the 14th amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, EQUAL protection under the law can NOT be withheld. See the section specifying that below please.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I fail to see how I am anti-semetic or anti-muslim, when all I want to do is protect the rights of each individual to their body, their genital integrity, and their right to their own religion, should they so choose a religion that requires genital cutting of them.
And also, no freedom from religion? Does this mean that practitioners of a religion that are instructed by their deity to kill non believers, stone disobedient women to death in the streets, or marry one's rape victim and pay their father 15 silver pieces, are above the law?
Your 14th amendment point is a fair one. However, the law on female genital mutilation applies specifically to females, much like a law can specifically apply to any certain group and not necessarily apply to the whole population.
A baby's rights are entrusted to its parents. A parent determines where the baby is born and how, determines what clothes it wears, determines if it gets vaccinations (which it should - but that's another topic), and determines whether (if male) it should be circumcised or not. Babies cannot make their own decisions, and so we trust the parents. You may argue that parents are making the wrong decision, but they have their reasons, and their rights must be protected too.
There is a big difference between the examples you gave of religious commandments and male circumcision. I will not speak for Islam because I am not a scholar of it. However, I am Jewish and very knowledgeable about my religion.
For Jewish people, circumcision of boys is probably the most (if not among the top 3) important commandments and rituals in the entire religion. It represents the continuing covenant God is said to have made with Abraham in Genesis. Think of it like baptism or communion (which themselves represent a second covenant that Christian people believe was made between God the Father and Jesus Christ).
It is an enormously huge rite of passage. At a Biblical level, we see it almost as a small sacrifice to God in exchange for all he would do/has done for our people. At a cultural level, we see it as a part of who we are and of how our people have persevered throughout history (for some, evidence of said covenant).
I realize that you yourself are not anti-Semitic. The reason I find vehement intactivism to be anti-Semitic is because it has happened before. During the Roman occupation of ancient Israel in which the Second Temple was destroyed, the Romans forced the Jews into painful reverse-circumcision. The concept of inheriting religion through the mother was invented at that time in part because so many Jewish women were being raped by Roman soldiers.
I understand that you support this cause because you believe in what you call genital integrity, and that you hope to stop pain with your cause. What I'm telling you is that a person or group who has experienced persecution highly will be very sensitive to this kind of thing, even if they are not being threatened on religious grounds.
On the genital sensitivity point, while circumcision does lessen a man's penile sensitivity, many Jewish people see that as a small price to pay for such an important part of being Jewish.
This is not just an arcane rule about stoning women or burning heretics. Those minor rules have fallen at the wayside to all but a few extremely orthodox groups. This is a huge and essential part of Judaism. It reminds us of our past and, for many, gives evidence of a bright future.
I'm sorry to get so emotional and technical and virulent about all this, because I know you don't support your cause to be anti-Jewish. Its just a way it can be perceived. Hopefully, you'll realize that this is much larger than Biblical minutia. Its an entire people.
Last edited by highschooler; July 23rd, 2014 at 02:58 PM.