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Old September 27th, 2007, 10:05 PM  
Dolphus Raymond
Great Poster
 
Join Date: May 18, 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Default Re: *** Ask ALL Cut / Uncut Questions HERE ***

Well, here we go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
I think the issue that's been raised isn't so much the perceived value of circ Vs. foreskin (or the other way around), but rather the issue of 'choice'. I think people have issues with 'choice' either because they have a larger problem with authority/control/trust, so their emotional issue gets inextricably associated with their penis, or they have been led to think that a bad choice was made for them, and that as a result they are missing out on something (in this case, penile nirvana). The implicit message being that if you could, you would have (or should have) made a different choice (i.e. keep your foreskin).
I can't really defend people who are elevating uncircumcisedness to "penile nirvana." But you're veering dangerously toward strawman territory, here. I don't think people think they are missing on "penile nirvana." As moderator at GovTeen, I've spoken to a lot of people who are upset about having been circumcised. Very few of them think that. It's more practical. They want the gliding action. They don't like the tightness of the circumcision. They don't hate being circumcised, but faced with the information, they strongly believe it should have been their choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
This comes from the anti circ crowd, who, for whatever reasons, have taken a take-no-prisoners approach to their goal of reducing the number of circ's by whatever means possible, including the fearsome 'loss of sensitivity/pleasure' argument that you duplicitiously added to your post, while simultaneously stating that you don't bother arguing or that you honestly don't care. The problem with these tactics, besides the clear hypocracy, dishonesty and selfishness that they embody, is that in order win converts to your side (i.e. to get guys to not want to circ their future sons), you have to devastate them first by making them feel permanently damaged.
Woah, hold back there. I said that there is conflicted evidence about whether circumcision reduces sensitivity. The foreskin has nerve endings...it's skin. Some studies indicate it has erogenous properties. You don't know me, so I'm going to give you credit here. The last thing I want to do is make people feel like crap.

I do want people not to circumcise their children, yeah. I'm straight-up about that. But I do not want people to feel mutilated. I'm not a zealot and I'm not a jerk. I'm kind of hurt that you assume that. Yes, I want to convince them that it was wrong to do. But, yes, I also think it's pretty trivial. But just because it is trivial does not mean it should continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
The goal here isn't 'education' or enlightenment. It's change. There isn't much room in the argument for those with a differing opinion, there's little tolerance for differeing experiences. It's laughable that the anti circ side actually uses the 'choice' argument, as they are so unwilling to acknowledge the validity of a choice other than their own. Your dismissing my experience, simply because you find it 'inconvienent' and not supporting your opinion bears this out. Unfortunately, you also close your mind and miss an important opportunity to learn in the process. This does not make you a credible source of information.
Could you please stop imposing anti-circumcision zealots' views over mine? Read what I said again. I don't trust anecdotal evidence from either side when it comes to sensitivity. I'd just as quickly devalue comments from people who have restored their foreskin and find the sensitivity much better. It's anecdotal! No scientist accepts anecdotal evidence when empirical evidence is available. Especially when anecdotal evidence is coming from only one person.

That's scientific procedure 101. I'm pretty sure you know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
This idea that doctors make mistakes, that they are 'biased', that 'people don't give things the scientific weight they deserve' again, appeals to raw emotion, but it's simply not supported by the facts. I live with 2 generations of doctors on both sides of the family, and doctors get to be that way with lots of training and education and experience. They do not care what behaviors or habits you engage in, they are not judgemental or opinionated, they are just there to provide answers and offer options based on all that training and experience. What you do when you leave their office is really up to you. They do not have a personal emotional investment in your decision, their responsibility is to provide info.
Are you really arguing that doctors don't make mistakes or have personal biases on issues? They're humans. Of course they can, and they do. I'm not supporting the earlier comment about some mass attempt to circumcise children without their parents' permission. I'm really not crazy. Honestly! I promise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
Newborns aren't/weren't being secreted away without parental consent for the snip. What I've come to understand is that all those health benefits of circ that were found to be true in the mid 20th century (when it became routine) are still true today, no one has debunked them. However, those reasons seem less important today to many people, I'd like to think that's the reason the rate is dropping, not that parents don't take the time to do the research. It's impossible to know what your son might feel many years later or what he might want, so parents probably make the decision based on their own experience. You make this seem ignorant. It's not, just human nature.
Does dad preferring being circumcised make the son more likely to prefer it too in any way? No. And if it's impossible to know, give him the own choice.

You're confusing me with the "uncircumcised is better" crowd. I'm the "neither is inherently better; give them a choice" crowd. I said as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
And, although you'd have us believe that only those who leave their son's with foreskin are enlightened, I'm sure that the same decision making process is used on both sides.
God no. A lot of the drop in rates is Hispanics, who probably make an equally uneducated decision about it. I'm not meaning to imply any such thing. If I did, I shouldn't have.

[Edit: At least they might on average, considering how hard bilingual medical information on stuff like that is to find. I assume most just go with "tradition." Even though I think that ends up at the right choice, I think the thoughtlessness is no better. I didn't mean to say that all Hispanics are medically uneducated, of course.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
So, 'Choice' isn't a valid argument here because whatever was decided, a choice was made. Because you either agree with the choice, or feel like the beneficiary doesn't take away from the simple fact the choice was made for you, and that undoing that choice would be very painful, indeed. I do not feel 'fortunate' because my parents left my foreskin attached. It frankly turned out not to be worth the bother.
But if you had no ability to get circumcised, and had to say as you were - unhappy - would you feel the same way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
Lastly, let me say that i am neither an expert on the subject of circ, nor do i want to get into endless debate over it. I enjoyed my foreskin, but not so much because it was 'better' that it is now (it's really not), but because it was a part of me, of my penis. However, because I generally feel good about myself and who i am, I am sure that no matter what 'choice' my parents made for me at birth i'd be AOK with it now (as most guys are). You (and the anti circ crowd) would do well to ask yourselves why, even with foreskin, you spend so much of your time and energy defending it. Instead of trying to feel better about something else with these circ arguments, why not spend the time addressing what it is that's really making you unhappy. Making others needlessly unhappy cannot possibly serve any constructive purpose.
I'm...really not unhappy. At all. Medicine and ethics both fascinate me. They merge, here. I don't care about this because I want people to look like me, or because I feel threatened by being in the minority. I'm sure plenty of anti-circ people feel that way. Plenty of people on the pro- and anti- sides freak me the hell out. I'm not one of those people. You should have the good grace not to make that assumption.

I'm not implying you're psychologically unstable because you're disagreeing with me. It would be kind of nice to get the same in return.

dolphus.

"I don't believe in magic. But I do believe in interpreting coincidence exactly the way you want to." -Sherman Alexie

Last edited by Dolphus Raymond; September 27th, 2007 at 10:56 PM.
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