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Old September 27th, 2007, 09:48 PM  
Legendary Member
Name: Sam!
Join Date: July 14, 2007
Age: 27
Gender: Male
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Default Re: *** Ask ALL Cut / Uncut Questions HERE ***

Originally Posted by Dolphus Raymond View Post
I don't see what's offensive about what Groszewski is saying. Parents aren't perfect. They may assume that something is obligatory when it's not. Ninety percent of parents in the 1970s circumcised their children. If you think all of them did it with full education and after researching the pros and cons, you're a lot more generous about the average person's medical education than I am. Some parents don't give it a second thought. I think that's disappointing. If you're permanently modifying a part of the anatomy that might be missed, you should really have a higher standard than "he'll look like dad" or "I met a nurse who said she heard it was healthier."

IAMSAM, although I respect your opinion and all, anecdotal evidence isn't exactly scientifically great. The theory of circumcision-related sensitivity loss relates to keratinization. The glans becomes hard and tougher with gradual exposure. That means gradual; in other words, it would likely be so gradual that you wouldn't notice much, and it would take years to show full effect anyway. There are studies with conflicting results on sensitivity. Some say it makes no difference to the glans sensitivity. There's pretty wide agreement that the foreskin itself is sensitive. Whether being uncircumcised makes for more pleasure is unclear. I don't really bother arguing which is superior or inferior, because I don't honestly care. It's individual preference (you said it yourself). I think that choice is the more important matter. Be thankful that you had it. That's all I'm saying.

I think people should try to be happy with what they have. But if someone feels that they should have had the choice over their body, I can't blame them. I personally agree that it should be a choice. Since when does disagreeing with a parental choice mean you think your parents are sadistic jerks who wanted to hurt you? It doesn't. There is a reason that, along with the advent of the Internet, the rates have fallen below 60% (and to about 25% on the West Coast), and it's been abandoned most everywhere outside of the U.S. Questioning tradition is a part of maturity. That's why our parents encouraged us to think.
I think the issue that's been raised isn't so much the perceived value of circ Vs. foreskin (or the other way around), but rather the issue of 'choice'. I think people have issues with 'choice' either because they have a larger problem with authority/control/trust, so their emotional issue gets inextricably associated with their penis, or they have been led to think that a bad choice was made for them, and that as a result they are missing out on something (in this case, penile nirvana). The implicit message being that if you could, you would have (or should have) made a different choice (i.e. keep your foreskin).This comes from the anti circ crowd, who, for whatever reasons, have taken a take-no-prisoners approach to their goal of reducing the number of circ's by whatever means possible, including the fearsome 'loss of sensitivity/pleasure' argument that you duplicitiously added to your post, while simultaneously stating that you don't bother arguing or that you honestly don't care. The problem with these tactics, besides the clear hypocracy, dishonesty and selfishness that they embody, is that in order win converts to your side (i.e. to get guys to not want to circ their future sons), you have to devastate them first by making them feel permanently damaged. The goal here isn't 'education' or enlightenment. It's change. There isn't much room in the argument for those with a differing opinion, there's little tolerance for differeing experiences. It's laughable that the anti circ side actually uses the 'choice' argument, as they are so unwilling to acknowledge the validity of a choice other than their own. Your dismissing my experience, simply because you find it 'inconvienent' and not supporting your opinion bears this out. Unfortunately, you also close your mind and miss an important opportunity to learn in the process. This does not make you a credible source of information.

This idea that doctors make mistakes, that they are 'biased', that 'people don't give things the scientific weight they deserve' again, appeals to raw emotion, but it's simply not supported by the facts. I live with 2 generations of doctors on both sides of the family, and doctors get to be that way with lots of training and education and experience. They do not care what behaviors or habits you engage in, they are not judgemental or opinionated, they are just there to provide answers and offer options based on all that training and experience. What you do when you leave their office is really up to you. They do not have a personal emotional investment in your decision, their responsibility is to provide info. Newborns aren't/weren't being secreted away without parental consent for the snip. What I've come to understand is that all those health benefits of circ that were found to be true in the mid 20th century (when it became routine) are still true today, no one has debunked them. However, those reasons seem less important today to many people, I'd like to think that's the reason the rate is dropping, not that parents don't take the time to do the research. It's impossible to know what your son might feel many years later or what he might want, so parents probably make the decision based on their own experience. You make this seem ignorant. It's not, just human nature. And, although you'd have us believe that only those who leave their son's with foreskin are enlightened, I'm sure that the same decision making process is used on both sides. So, 'Choice' isn't a valid argument here because whatever was decided, a choice was made. Because you either agree with the choice, or feel like the beneficiary doesn't take away from the simple fact the choice was made for you, and that undoing that choice would be very painful, indeed. I do not feel 'fortunate' because my parents left my foreskin attached. It frankly turned out not to be worth the bother.

Lastly, let me say that i am neither an expert on the subject of circ, nor do i want to get into endless debate over it. I enjoyed my foreskin, but not so much because it was 'better' that it is now (it's really not), but because it was a part of me, of my penis. However, because I generally feel good about myself and who i am, I am sure that no matter what 'choice' my parents made for me at birth i'd be AOK with it now (as most guys are). You (and the anti circ crowd) would do well to ask yourselves why, even with foreskin, you spend so much of your time and energy defending it. Instead of trying to feel better about something else with these circ arguments, why not spend the time addressing what it is that's really making you unhappy. Making others needlessly unhappy cannot possibly serve any constructive purpose.
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