Originally Posted by Lilys
Interesting that you ignored all the other points in my post. I'll repeat, how do you know the Torah was even written by God and Moses? How do you know that it isn't a bunch of legends written down to teach lessons and fabricate a more fanciful origin for the people living in Israel?
Oh hon, you don't want to go down the "we're on a lower spiritual level" path. I've heard it many times before. The people in the Torah made huge errors in morality all the time. Do you know the story of the leader of shevet shimon, Zimri who had sex with Kazbi bat Tzor? Was he on a higher level? And lets not forget Yehudah, who picked off a prostitute on the side of the road. Oh and Rus and Orpah, both Non-Jewish, who the sons of Avimelech and Naomi married. They were also on a higher level, weren't they? Oh yes, Rashi and the Ramban and all the others quickly rush to say how really it was the spirituality, they had ruach hakodesh that they were supposed to do what they did, and that puts everyone's minds at ease, that their heroes, who are on a higher level than them did those things for spiritual reasons. It's crap. Trust me you don't want me to get into how ridiculous torah sh'baal peh is.
No matter what level you're on, it's not ok to let a rapist of an unmarried girl go free with just a small payment to her father (and though the meforshim dutifully explain that it's because the girl is her father's property, until she gets married and becomes her husband's, so the case is treated like thievery, somehow that doesn't make it any better). It's not ok to be killed because you planted some seeds on the seventh day of the week. You know, 5772 years ago, when you believe the world started, is really not that long. And since the Torah was given on 2448, that even lessens the time allotted for this drastic change in spirituality. Prove to me that we're on a lower level. Because everything they had then, we have now. Except for the stoning and other forms of capital punishment (hot lead, anyone?) that governments thankfully outlawed.
First off, yes I do know the story with Zimri. He didn't do this randomly. What happened was that Bilam said that Moabi women should go try to entice the Jewish men by making them do Avodah Zara and have sex with them. and those who did were put to death by stoning (b/c of Avodah Zara) and then hanged. They didn't do it randomly, and they were on a high spiritual level then. They also did make mistakes, but here is no was that we can compare them to people of today, it just isn't possible.
Also, as I stated before, that may not have been exactly what happened. This is why we have to listen to the Mefarshim because they can help is relearn the laws that were taught to the Jews then, you can't just look at a translation.
And you wouldn't get killed immediately if you were Mechalel Shabbos. You would of course need to two witnesses and then to Bayt Din etc... And it is said that any Bayt Din that kills someone was highly unlikely, and they were cllaed a killing Bayt Din.
Zimri: Name Moab(i): tribe and tribespeople. Avodah Zara: idol worship.
Mefarshim (Rashi Ramban): Commentators on Torah Mechalel Shabbos: Breaking the Sbbath. Bayt Din: Jewish Courts
Originally Posted by Perseus
You are an ignorant child. The Vedas belong to the Hindus, who had their religion long before the Jews crafted their. You said the Jews had religion first. I'll even quote you.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you go learn about the other religions of the world and take a history class because your ignorance is radiating.
I should have been more clear, and no I am not ignorant. When I said this, I was referring to how some
religions are based off of Torah, but the Torah was the first of those.
.... put in other reply
Once again, please use multi-quote or the edit button. Not telling you again... - Michael