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Porpoise101
August 12th, 2017, 02:32 PM
CHARLOTTESVILLE — This picturesque college town devolved into a chaotic and violent state on Saturday as hundreds of white nationalists, neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan members — planning to stage what they described as their largest rally in decades to “take America back” — clashed with counterprotesters in the streets.

As the two sides traded blows and hurled bottles and chemical irritants at one another, police evacuated a downtown park, putting an end to the noon rally before it even began. Gov. Terry McAuliffe declared a state of emergency shortly before 11 a.m., blaming the violence on “mostly out-of-state protesters.”

“I am disgusted by the hatred, bigotry and violence these protesters have brought to our state over the past 24 hours,” McAuliffe (D) said.

Despite the decision to quash the rally, clashes continued on side streets and throughout the downtown. In the early afternoon, three cars collided in a pedestrian mall packed with people, injuring at least 10 and sending bystanders running and screaming. It was unclear if it was accidental or intentional.

[...]

White nationalist leader Richard Spencer also addressed the group, urging people to disperse. But he promised that they would gather again for a future demonstration, blaming Saturday’s violence on counterprotesters.

[...]

A large contingent of Charlottesville police officers and Virginia State Police troopers in riot gear were stationed on side streets and at nearby barricades but did nothing to break up the melee until around 11:40 a.m.Read the full article here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fights-in-advance-of-saturday-protest-in-charlottesville/2017/08/12/155fb636-7f13-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html?utm_term=.d3fbcdd16d3a)

It is terrible that radical politics are becoming a thing. There is only one appropriate response to this in my opinion; the authorities must hunt down those who were violent and summarily execute them. Those who incite violence for political purposes betray our Republic. As such, they deserve the treatment of any other traitor to our fair land.

Even if you do not agree with me on this point, you have to concede that the US is more radical and more divided than any other time in recent history. We need order back, and we need it fast. These anarchists, Nazis, and other undesirables aren't just denizens of the Internet. They exist in real life.

PlasmaHam
August 12th, 2017, 06:48 PM
Both sides are at fault here. The white-supremacists are obviously at fault for being racist and hateful fools, and the anarchic protesters are at fault for responding violently to an otherwise peaceful gathering. It is a shame in a country where freedom of opinion and speech is key, that so many violent protests and deaths have been done to suppress the speech and the opinions of the other side. This sort of action is extremely unAmerican. If you want to suppress speech, go to North Korea, not America.

Dalcourt
August 12th, 2017, 10:04 PM
It is sad to see people act like that. But sadly it is not un-American to act like that.
We had ugly scenes like that in our streets before back in the days.
And our society is taking a huge step backwards for years now.

Well I could go on with a who's to blame for that point of view here but it's not ROTW.

Mars
August 12th, 2017, 10:35 PM
Both sides are at fault here. The white-supremacists are obviously at fault for being racist and hateful fools, and the anarchic protesters are at fault for responding violently to an otherwise peaceful gathering. It is a shame in a country where freedom of opinion and speech is key, that so many violent protests and deaths have been done to suppress the speech and the opinions of the other side. This sort of action is extremely unAmerican. If you want to suppress speech, go to North Korea, not America.

I don't disagree that both sides were at fault for the injuries and deaths. However, the whole March and movement were done out of hate and spite by a bunch of Nazis, so I don't blame people for going out of their way to counter-protest. Things obviously got out of hand but this shit shouldn't be happening in the first place :/

Dalcourt
August 12th, 2017, 11:20 PM
I don't disagree that both sides were at fault for the injuries and deaths. However, the whole March and movement were done out of hate and spite by a bunch of Nazis, so I don't blame people for going out of their way to counter-protest. Things obviously got out of hand but this shit shouldn't be happening in the first place :/

But sadly in our day and age some people desperately clinging to the long gone "glorious past" feel that a statue is more important than the life of a human being.

We had the same protests in my hometown as a couple of those statues where removed. Luckily nobody died in the fights there.
But it was just appalling to see the hatred of some people. They came here from all different states to spread their hatred and sad attachment to something they glorified in a way it never was.

Snowfox
August 13th, 2017, 11:13 AM
So Porpoise101 and others as well. To sum this all up you demand that freedom of gathering and freedom of speech should be banned because you dont like what other side wants to say. So you mean that authorities should hunt down and execute summarily people who supposedly have opinions let alone political opinions that you dislike.

What also needs to be noted is that anarchist groups have been rampaging and vandalizing USA and other countries long time and no one suggests that left wing terrorists should be hunted down and executed summarily.

Seems that you are not satisfied about criminal justice. Whole process of trial and defence and something they call fair trial. NO you want people to be executed just because there is change that he/she/whatever could be closet nazi.
Or am I missing something now

Exocet
August 13th, 2017, 11:25 AM
Once again,left wing anarchists and so called antifas attacked and provoked peacefully protesting people (even for whatever reason they are protesting for) just because they don't share their opinions. Classic.

ShineintheDark
August 13th, 2017, 11:35 AM
To all those saying both sides are equally at fault and should be punished equally, are we just gonna skip over the death of a woman and 2 police officers that occurred because one of these 'peacefully protesting Americans' decided to drive into a crowd of people? Antifa and the like should of course be punished accordingly for inciting violence and riotig but make no mistake in realising that it was the actions of the far-right and neo-nazis that led to death and chaos in the struggle.

Mars
August 13th, 2017, 02:05 PM
Several posts in this thread have been deleted. Do not instigate fights and be insensitive towards each other. Keep the thread on topic.

~Mars

PlasmaHam
August 13th, 2017, 02:09 PM
To all those saying both sides are equally at fault and should be punished equally, are we just gonna skip over the death of a woman and 2 police officers that occurred because one of these 'peacefully protesting Americans' decided to drive into a crowd of people? Antifa and the like should of course be punished accordingly for inciting violence and riotig but make no mistake in realising that it was the actions of the far-right and neo-nazis that led to death and chaos in the struggle.

First of all, the two police had nothing to do with the car crash. Their deaths were related to an accident on the way to responding to violence instigated by left-wing protesters. Secondly, yea unfortunately a woman did die, and the perpetrator should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. The death penalty isn't out the door with me. However, this death wouldn't occurred if left-wing protestors didn't instigate the violence by pelting the marchers with rocks, urine balloons, and pepper spray. After all, isn't that the argument used for defending Muslim terrorism, saying that the West is actually at fault because we instigated violence in the Middle East? We can play the blame game all day dude, but no one is going to win.

Vermilion
August 13th, 2017, 02:26 PM
From what I understand the protest was over a statue of a confederate general that is due / people want it removed. I understand people wanting it to stay being part of there history even if it's a darker side of history. But you can't hide history by removing it. Let it be a reminder for people what discrimination can cause between families and friends. As for the violence yes the far right are know for it and caused tension by going there but the far left aren't innocent by having a counter Protestant the same time is going to make things worse. People are always willing to say nazi scum but you don't really see people saying communist whatever.

I'm not on either side as both have there rights to protest. As for a historical part with the general you can't rewrite history to make it politically correct you can only learn from the past.

Porpoise101
August 13th, 2017, 03:55 PM
Or am I missing something nowYes you are missing something. I want the authorities to terminate all those who are violent in protests. This is irregardless of opinions. Under these conditions, the violent neo-Nazis and anarchists would both be eliminated. It's not about opinions, it is about public order and safety of the community. In the end, the basic needs of the community come first. To preserve the community's right to live freely and safely, we must shut down violent gatherings.

It should be noted that our Constitution only protects "peaceable assembly". We need to start enforcing that, and it must be enforced harshly. We have become too lenient and soft on these leftists and rightists. There needs to be an example set.

Sure, there can be mass trials. I feel that it would be ok to give them a trial, considering there would be irrefutable evidence that they broke the law and are traitors.

Vermillion I do not buy that considering they were planning on moving the statue to a history museum or educational nonprofit. So I cannot understand the argument of "the PC leftists are destroying history" when they are actually preserving it for future generations.

Dalcourt
August 13th, 2017, 10:38 PM
A really sad discussion to read.

It's really sad how people here and especially all the media try to justify what happend, try to blame the innocent and are too coward to call out all those alt-rights, white supremacists,KKK etc. for what they really are.

Is that how America should become great again and be united?

Ted Cruz seems to be the only one who was able to call it what it really is. Domestic Terrorism.

All this immature talk here so sad.

mattsmith48
August 13th, 2017, 11:03 PM
A really sad discussion to read.

It's really sad how people here and especially all the media try to justify what happend, try to blame the innocent and are too coward to call out all those alt-rights, white supremacists,KKK etc. for what they really are.

Is that how America should become great again and be united?

Ted Cruz seems to be the only one who was able to call it what it really is. Domestic Terrorism.

All this immature talk here so sad.

From what I saw think, I the media as done a good job by calling it terrorism. Usually in the US the terrorist attack as to be done by someone from the Middle East and/or Muslim to be called terrorism. The guy who hit the crowd with his car got charged with murder and not terrorism that a problem.

PlasmaHam
August 13th, 2017, 11:14 PM
No one here is defending the actions done here. As I've repeatedly stated, we should prosecute those who engaged in unlawful violence, and let the car driver swing from the highest tree if found guilty of murder. I am not defending any actions or ideology here, violent protests should not be accepted in this nation, regardless of the ideology it springs from. And none of our leaders have been defending such actions either. Trump and numerous other national government officals have called out the hate and violence.

I am saying that this isn't terrorism because it doesn't fit the definition of terrorism. Terrorist attacks are isolated sneak attacks done against the civilian population. This was part of a widespread wave of violence by both sides, it wasn't an isolated sneak attack upon a civilian population, but part of a greater conflict. A better classification of the Charlottesville attack would be turf warfare, as both of these groups are essentially gangs fighting to push the other group out. To say this is terrorism just removes any real meaning to the word.

Dalcourt
August 13th, 2017, 11:29 PM
No one here is defending the actions done here. As I've repeatedly stated, we should prosecute those who engaged in unlawful violence, and let the car driver swing from the highest tree if found guilty of murder. I am not defending any actions or ideology here, violent protests should not be accepted in this nation, regardless of the ideology it springs from. And none of our leaders have been defending such actions either. Trump and numerous other national government officals have called out the hate and violence.

Sure you believe that what was said and done was enough but you also have this sad flag back on your ava. So I'm sorry, but you will never understand how some things might really feel.

Porpoise101
August 14th, 2017, 12:53 PM
the media try to justify what happend, try to blame the innocentI have not seen this. Any links? If so it is terrible.

PlasmaHam
August 14th, 2017, 01:10 PM
Sure you believe that what was said and done was enough but you also have this sad flag back on your ava. So I'm sorry, but you will never understand how some things might really feel.

I wave the flags for differing reasons than them. And I really don't care whether or not you think I can "understand" the problems here. Understanding is not constrained by the color of your skin or the heritage of your ancestors. I don't want to get into another discussion with you regarding race, so I'll leave it at that.

It's really sad how people here and especially all the media try to justify what happend, try to blame the innocent
I second Porpoise101's request. Where is this justifications for violence and murder you speak of?

Dmaxd123
August 14th, 2017, 04:21 PM
racism is a 2 way street

violence is violence no matter who started it, black white green or purple the bigger person has to stand up and walk the other way, it isn't a left/right issue it isn't the past present or future administration's fault

i guess i view race just like i view the lesbian/gay/ect.. community: you treat me like a human we are good to go, you treat me like i owe you something and I will take offense and go elsewhere NOT because of "what" you are but because of who YOU are

so i'm going to agree with those that say there are plenty of people on both sides of those protests that are to blame for how things went down...

on a side note: BLM, KKK, neighbor hood kids.... roads are for driving not playing or protesting... obviously not condoning flooring the car into a crowd obviously that was murder and attempted murder but protest on the sidewalk, in a park, in a parking lot.... not the street or freeway

PlasmaHam
August 14th, 2017, 10:49 PM
Porpoise101 PlasmaHam
Just read a bit through some other threads here on the VT Daily Chronicle.
You will find quite a couple of stuff where Liberals where called Antifa by people who don't even know what Antifa is. You will see them called terrorists and what not for doing so much a staying fuck you to a cop. You will find threads that describe BLM as mindless thugs and domestic terrorism.
Okay... And how exactly is this related to this conversation of media denial?

And did you all bother to read some not so mainstream news or right-wing news? Neonazis celebrated since not single them out as culprit at once gave them a silent approval by our government and the masses. I'm pretty sure some black clad Antifa guys driving g a truck into a group of Nazis and everyone would have shouted terrorists within. a second.
I'm still not seeing any links to media sites justifying the violence and murder.

As for the rest of your post, I gave up on a response out of confusion. I was getting contradictory messages from it, and it didn't appear to be worth my time to attempt a response.

Dalcourt
August 14th, 2017, 10:51 PM
I have not seen this. Any links? If so it is terrible.

What links do you need? Did you read other than mainstream media or did you right wing media? Trumps not condemning Neonazis at once gave the impression of acknowledgement to them.

And just read through VT Daily Chronicle a bit... the out cries against what everyone nowadays finds fancy to call Antifa or if you scroll down further about about BLM...it's all called hate groups and domestic terrorism at once without even thinking twice that in a fight both sides are to blame...

So saying now oh it's sad a person died but the side she was on is to blame too...I mean that's a sad belittling of a death.A few scrolls down a thread wants to make the attack of an Antifa protester on a police horse an act for domestic terrorism. There no other side is to blame but when a young woman dies it's suddenly her fault, too?

Seems like the silent right wing indoctrination in our society really works well when we are all so ready to accept this sort of moral.


I wave the flags for differing reasons than them. And I really don't care whether or not you think I can "understand" the problems here. Understanding is not constrained by the color of your skin or the heritage of your ancestors. I don't want to get into another discussion with you regarding race, so I'll leave it at that.

Never talked about race or skin color here. It's just an assumption of whites that colored so are so obsessed with it I could say now.
If I would wave a Nazi flag just because I liked the color of it I would also have to accept when people would think I silently acknowledge what they did in the name of the flag, wouldn't I?
I'm as much a Southerner as you and a great deal of my family consisted and still consists of white people so believe me even though my outward appearance will always put me on the one side I understand and know the other side as well.
Some of my ancestors also fought for that flag in the past. Some of my ancestors also were proud slave owners...so your assuming why I'm saying this flag is sad shows you don't understand what I mean at all.

But my Dad has the same flag in his truck and doesn't quite understand either so well...I don't blame you really.
[/QUOTE]

racism is a 2 way street

violence is violence no matter who started it, black white green or purple the bigger person has to stand up and walk the other way, it isn't a left/right issue it isn't the past present or future administration's fault

i guess i view race just like i view the lesbian/gay/ect.. community: you treat me like a human we are good to go, you treat me like i owe you something and I will take offense and go elsewhere NOT because of "what" you are but because of who YOU are

so i'm going to agree with those that say there are plenty of people on both sides of those protests that are to blame for how things went down...

on a side note: BLM, KKK, neighbor hood kids.... roads are for driving not playing or protesting... obviously not condoning flooring the car into a crowd obviously that was murder and attempted murder but protest on the sidewalk, in a park, in a parking lot.... not the street or freeway

Again the problem is not racism or whatever. The problem is that mindless hate from a certain. group lead to the death of person and that saying all are at fault just wrong here.
If some black clad Antifa guys would have driven a truck into a group of neonazis I'm sure you would have heard the cry of domestic terrorism within. seconds from our President and everyone else.

So yes, it is all a two way street but seening this now is just hypocrisy...
That many sides are to blame is always the case but obviously just seen in special circumstances...

PlasmaHam
August 15th, 2017, 10:04 AM
Yet another example of left-wing violence, a group of "peaceful protesters" in NC torn down and destroyed a 93 year-old monument to Confederates killed in the Civil War. An obvious example of destruction of public property, a trademark of "peaceful" leftist protests.

And before I get any "Well, traitors don't deserve a statue!" conspiracy theories, let me explain something. Under Federal Law, Confederate veterans get the same rights, privileges, and standings as Union veterans. They are American veterans, so destroying a statue memorializing their deaths is essentially desecrating the death of hundreds of thousands of American vets. But I guess given the dismal state of the VA and the military, the Lefties really ever cared about veterans in the first place.

Mars
August 15th, 2017, 10:10 AM
Yet another example of left-wing violence, a group of "peaceful protesters" in NC torn down and destroyed a 93 year-old monument to Confederates killed in the Civil War. An obvious example of destruction of public property, a trademark of "peaceful" leftist protests.

And before I get any "Well, traitors don't deserve a statue!" conspiracy theories, let me explain something. Under Federal Law, Confederate veterans get the same rights, privileges, and standings as Union veterans. They are American veterans, so destroying a statue memorializing their deaths is essentially desecrating the death of hundreds of thousands of American vets. But I guess given the dismal state of the VA and the military, the Lefties really ever cared about veterans in the first place.

Not to get too off topic here but can we stop with this leftist/righty bullshit? Honestly man... There are wrongs to both sides and bad apples in each bunch. Just like how some left wing protesters vandalize shit and some right wing protesters are racists.

Second, if lefties never really cared about veterans in the first place, tell me what Trump said about Veterans? Tell me what the Republican Party is trying to do for them right now? No one gives a shit about vets and it's wrong and fucked up but don't play the blame game when the whole system is at fault.

Also, we didn't fight WW2 against nazis in Germany for them to be born here man :/ Screw all this stuff in the first place, as it shouldn't even be happening

mattsmith48
August 15th, 2017, 10:43 AM
Yet another example of left-wing violence, a group of "peaceful protesters" in NC torn down and destroyed a 93 year-old monument to Confederates killed in the Civil War. An obvious example of destruction of public property, a trademark of "peaceful" leftist protests.

I both sides are at fault here, in fact they started it by wanting to secede and fighting a war against the US over slavery.

And before I get any "Well, traitors don't deserve a statue!" conspiracy theories,

They fought a war against their own country and seceded from that country, to me that sounds a lot like treason I don't see where the conspiracy is.

let me explain something. Under Federal Law, Confederate veterans get the same rights, privileges, and standings as Union veterans.

Why? and it doesn't change the fact they are traitors.

PlasmaHam
August 15th, 2017, 10:55 AM
Not to get too off topic here but can we stop with this leftist/righty bullshit? Honestly man... There are wrongs to both sides and bad apples in each bunch. Just like how some left wing protesters vandalize shit and some right wing protesters are racists. It's funny that you didn't seem to say this while Peanut was ranting about how evil right wing indoctrination is infecting our culture and corrupting our morals, but I'll stop with with the left/right argument if you so please.

Mars
August 15th, 2017, 11:10 AM
It's funny that you didn't seem to say this while Peanut was ranting about how evil right wing indoctrination is infecting our culture and corrupting our morals, but I'll stop with with the left/right argument if you so please.

That's implying I agree with him as well tho. I don't believe anyone should be insulted over their political beliefs (or any other beliefs for that matter) because that's just not American.

Also, I don't believe your avatar has much to do with your political beliefs. While yes, during the civil war it stood for the confederacy and those who wanted to suceed (is that how you spell it?), for many people in the south it doesn't stand for that anymore. It's a matter of southern pride and that's acceptable. However, you do have to realise and accept that many people are going to take that flag a certain way because of what it stood for for a long time.

mattsmith48
August 15th, 2017, 02:09 PM
What links do you need? Did you read other than mainstream media or did you right wing media? Trumps not condemning Neonazis at once gave the impression of acknowledgement to them.

Donald Trump spent is entire campaign talking about terrorism and criticizing Obama and Clinton for not saying the ''radical Islamic terrorist'' and the 1st act of terrorism that happen in the US since becoming president he doesn't condemned the people who did it. That's bad enough, but now he is spending more time and more tweets attacking the CEOs who resigned than for condemning Neo-Nazis this weekend.


Also, I don't believe your avatar has much to do with your political beliefs. While yes, during the civil war it stood for the confederacy and those who wanted to suceed (is that how you spell it?), for many people in the south it doesn't stand for that anymore. It's a matter of southern pride and that's acceptable. However, you do have to realise and accept that many people are going to take that flag a certain way because of what it stood for for a long time.

That would be like saying that having the Nazi flag is about German pride and it is acceptable to have use it.

Posts merged. Use the multi quote button next time. ~Mars

Mars
August 15th, 2017, 02:32 PM
That would be like saying that having the Nazi flag is about German pride and it is acceptable to have use it.

The confederate flag represents the confederacy, or the southern states that wanted to secede and make their own country because they did not agree with the policies that were being implemented. Now, 150 some years later, many southerners use it as a flag of southern pride (as it did, and still represents southern states).

The nazi flag represents the nazi party of Germany, that took over and instilled policies of prejudice against Jews, homosexuals, blacks, disabled, and elderly persons, and furthered on those policies by inciting violence and killing millions. Now, 80 some years later, that flag is still used as a means for white supremacy and Neo nazism and alt right agenda.

So while yes, some use the confederate flag to wave and symbolize white supremacy, many use it to represent pride for southern states (as it was representing southern states). All while the nazi flag has never represented German pride nor has anyone tried to make it represent German pride, as it was a symbol for a political party and agenda.

I don't believe it's fair to compare the two

mattsmith48
August 15th, 2017, 02:49 PM
The confederate flag represents the confederacy, or the southern states that wanted to secede and make their own country because they did not agree with the policies that were being implemented. Now, 150 some years later, many southerners use it as a flag of southern pride (as it did, and still represents southern states).

The nazi flag represents the nazi party of Germany, that took over and instilled policies of prejudice against Jews, homosexuals, blacks, disabled, and elderly persons, and furthered on those policies by inciting violence and killing millions. Now, 80 some years later, that flag is still used as a means for white supremacy and Neo nazism and alt right agenda.

So while yes, some use the confederate flag to wave and symbolize white supremacy, many use it to represent pride for southern states (as it was representing southern states). All while the nazi flag has never represented German pride nor has anyone tried to make it represent German pride, as it was a symbol for a political party and agenda.

I don't believe this is the same thing.

Don't forgot the part of the why they wanted to secede, because of slavery. That part is kinda important and shows why it is the same as the Nazi flag and why it is perceived as racist to use it. If you want to show your southern pride there is other non-offensive symbol available for anyone to use.

Mars
August 15th, 2017, 02:54 PM
Don't forgot the part of the why they wanted to secede, because of slavery. That part is kinda important and shows why it is the same as the Nazi flag and why it is perceived as racist to use it. If you want to show your southern pride there is other non-offensive symbol available for anyone to use.

Theres still a difference, I believe.

Nowadays you can see people hang up the confederate flag that aren't racist, and generally represent their southern pride. You will not see anyone hang up the nazi flag that isn't a racist. While the confederate flag represents a would be country, or the states of the south, the nazi flag represents the ideology and political party.

mattsmith48
August 15th, 2017, 03:00 PM
Theres still a difference, I believe.

Nowadays you can see people hang up the confederate flag that aren't racist, and generally represent their southern pride. You will not see anyone hang up the nazi flag that isn't a racist. While the confederate flag represents a would be country, or the states of the south, the nazi flag represents the ideology and political party.

Some people who hang up the confederate flag might not be racist but will be seen as racist by others. I think the confederate flag represent more slavery than the south wanting to be its own country.

Mars
August 15th, 2017, 03:07 PM
Some people who hang up the confederate flag might not be racist but will be seen as racist by others. I think the confederate flag represent more slavery than the south wanting to be its own country.

Regardless of how others see them, it's more important how the person is. Rather someone not be racist and look racist than actually be racist right?

Porpoise101
August 15th, 2017, 08:16 PM
What links do you need? Did you read other than mainstream media or did you right wing media? Trumps not condemning Neonazis at once gave the impression of acknowledgement to them.Right I have seen right wing people blame the incident on the left for various reasons. But I did not actually see anyone blame her as an individual. Even the neo-nazis themselves condemned the killing of her.
So saying now oh it's sad a person died but the side she was on is to blame too...I mean that's a sad belittling of a death.I don't think "her side" has much to do with the death being good or bad. I have only seen people get mad at leftists because they escalated a terrible situation. Whether that was justified, to counter protest, is a different story. To put it bluntly, she isn't "her side". She is an individual case, and her passing has to be treated with the respect and dignity that such a tragic end entails.

On the topic of the Confederate Battle Flag: it is a bad symbol to say the least. There is nothing worthwhile about it. "Southern Pride" some say. Well, what is there to be proud of? Nothing. When the South banded together as a political faction even before the civil war, it was all in an interest to further a barbaric practice. They supported wars and invasions in the West and against Mexico simply to have more land to enslave people on. Then they rose up against their nation because of the greedy commercial interests of a few bigwigs at the top. The white "Southerner" has nothing to be proud of in his Southern ancestry. His ancestors either directed brutal wars of conquest, enslaved people, or was made into a useful idiot and cannon fodder for those at the top of Southern society. The only reason "Southern Pride" exists is because the Southern whites needed to compensate for their inferiority complex after Reconstruction.

PlasmaHam
August 16th, 2017, 10:35 AM
The only reason "Southern Pride" exists is because the Southern whites needed to compensate for their inferiority complex...I would say something similar about black pride, but I know if I elaborate any more on that topic my post will be deleted over "racism", so that is all I'm saying about that.

mattsmith48
August 16th, 2017, 11:17 AM
Donald Trump defended is initial reaction, saying he wanted to ''know the facts'' before condemning anyone. Like not knowing the facts ever stopped him before. But I don't blame him it wasn't obvious who did this, it's not like they were waving Nazi and confederate flags. After saying the wants to know the facts before making a statement he went back to blaming both sides. Is there someone better at pulling shit out of their ass?

Regardless of how others see them, it's more important how the person is. Rather someone not be racist and look racist than actually be racist right?

Sure, but it doesn't change what the flag represent.

Southside
August 16th, 2017, 01:43 PM
Okay... And how exactly is this related to this conversation of media denial?


I'm still not seeing any links to media sites justifying the violence and murder.

As for the rest of your post, I gave up on a response out of confusion. I was getting contradictory messages from it, and it didn't appear to be worth my time to attempt a response.

I hope you're able to call the car running into a crowd incident an act of domestic terrorism...If it was an ANTIFA or BLM car that did the same to the Alt-Right/White Nationalist it'd be undoubtedly called an act of domestic terrorism.

Just like the Charleston shootings were an act of domestic terrorism,let's call it both ways you know?

DriveAlive
August 16th, 2017, 02:27 PM
The actual killing of the protester with the car is not the main problem with this event. That was a criminal act separate from the protest.

The police are at fault for letting the protests get out of control.

I find it extremely troubling that white males are emboldened by the current climate in this country to dress up like Nazis and march in support of Nazism. This is not a good sign for the future of the country.

Flapjack
August 16th, 2017, 02:47 PM
How did I know this thread would be toxic XD

I seriously don't get how stuff like this is so controversial tbh, or how stuff like the confederate flag is relevant at all here but give people a chance to score a few political points and they go all loopy.

PlasmaHam
August 16th, 2017, 02:58 PM
I hope you're able to call the car running into a crowd incident an act of domestic terrorism...If it was an ANTIFA or BLM car that did the same to the Alt-Right/White Nationalist it'd be undoubtedly called an act of domestic terrorism.

Just like the Charleston shootings were an act of domestic terrorism,let's call it both ways you know?
I've answered this question twice already. You are new to the conversation so I am assuming you didn't see my response. Just look back through this thread and you should find my explanation as to why this isn't domestic terrorism.

The police are at fault for letting the protests get out of control.
Yes, it is amazing that the town gave the alt-righters permission to march, yet failed to supply adequate police protection. They had to know that such a march would have numerous risks from counter-protesters. But you do kinda have to feel for the police, they can't do much more too suppress the violence protesters without someone yelling out police brutality, especially in our current anti-police climate.

I find it extremely troubling that white males are emboldened by the current climate in this country to dress up like Nazis and march in support of Nazism. This is not a good sign for the future of the country.
Indeed. And to those who may think it, I do not support Nazism in the slightest. Me supporting Nazis is like Peanut supporting the KKK, it ain't happening. I think the real problem in America is that politics have become so radicalized, and that political extremism is becoming acceptable by many. You have seen rhetoric on both sides advocating for violence against the other, the most obvious being the "Punch a Nazi" campaign by those of the alt-left, and similar coming from the alt-right. We as a society need to address the problem of political extremism as a whole, instead of just pointing our fingers at whatever political extremists we don't agree with.

Dmaxd123
August 16th, 2017, 04:59 PM
plasmaham:

i think you hit one of the key points that has been on my mind: why is it ANYTHING that goes wrong in this country turns to a left vs right debacle?

this wasn't a left vs right, this was 2 groups of potentially violent people that instigated one another and had a terrible outcome.


matt: the president was/is correct in blaming BOTH sides but ultimately it wasn't either side it was ONE individual that decided to act on his own accord and run into a crowd I doubt there was a vote before the rally saying "ok if this happens who is going to take the fall"

Drewboyy
August 16th, 2017, 05:38 PM
There was obviously a problem going on between 2 extremes and if the president only condemned one side, he would stir the hate even further. One could even argue it was the states fault.

Southside
August 16th, 2017, 06:46 PM
I've answered this question twice already. You are new to the conversation so I am assuming you didn't see my response. Just look back through this thread and you should find my explanation as to why this isn't domestic terrorism.


Yes, it is amazing that the town gave the alt-righters permission to march, yet failed to supply adequate police protection. They had to know that such a march would have numerous risks from counter-protesters. But you do kinda have to feel for the police, they can't do much more too suppress the violence protesters without someone yelling out police brutality, especially in our current anti-police climate.


Indeed. And to those who may think it, I do not support Nazism in the slightest. Me supporting Nazis is like Peanut supporting the KKK, it ain't happening. I think the real problem in America is that politics have become so radicalized, and that political extremism is becoming acceptable by many. You have seen rhetoric on both sides advocating for violence against the other, the most obvious being the "Punch a Nazi" campaign by those of the alt-left, and similar coming from the alt-right. We as a society need to address the problem of political extremism as a whole, instead of just pointing our fingers at whatever political extremists we don't agree with.

I feel your point but at the end of the day you gotta call it for what it is, which is domestic terrorism. Sometimes we fail to call it both ways also

I guarantee you if it was a black man affiliated with BLM or some other left wing movement, it'd be plastered everywhere as an act of terrorism

Was the Charleston church shootings an act of terrorism to you or something else?

mattsmith48
August 16th, 2017, 08:03 PM
There was obviously a problem going on between 2 extremes and if the president only condemned one side, he would stir the hate even further. One could even argue it was the states fault.

One side was White Supremacist and neo-nazis if Trump had condemned them from the start we wouldn't be taking about it.

Drewboyy
August 16th, 2017, 10:58 PM
One side was White Supremacist and neo-nazis if Trump had condemned them from the start we wouldn't be taking about it.

So if he took the antifa's side, we wouldn't be having this conversation because then only one side, your side, would be pleased? That's amusing

He can simply condemn non-peaceful protesting. He can condemn the person who murdered someone.He can condemn the group that came with the intent to break up a peaceful protest. He can condemn the police for allowing the two groups to interact.
But he can't condemn a person or group simply for having a political view. That would just enable all parties involved, further causing separation.

PlasmaHam
August 16th, 2017, 11:11 PM
I feel your point but at the end of the day you gotta call it for what it is, which is domestic terrorism. Sometimes we fail to call it both ways also

I guarantee you if it was a black man affiliated with BLM or some other left wing movement, it'd be plastered everywhere as an act of terrorism.
Did you actually go back and read my post? Because you are literally making the exact same argument as before.


Was the Charleston church shootings an act of terrorism to you or something else?
Sure, I'll say Charleston was terrorism, as was the assassination of 5 police officers by a black man in Dallas last year. But there is a pretty large difference between an unprovoked and isolated shooting, and a car collision during major mob violence. But you would have already understood that if you actually read my post.

mattsmith48
August 16th, 2017, 11:19 PM
So if he took the antifa's side, we wouldn't be having this conversation because then only one side, your side, would be pleased? That's amusing

He can simply condemn non-peaceful protesting. He can condemn the person who murdered someone.He can condemn the group that came with the intent to break up a peaceful protest. He can condemn the police for allowing the two groups to interact.
But he can't condemn a person or group simply for having a political view. That would just enable all parties involved, further causing separation.

Racism is not a political view. Yes you can and should condemn violent protesters especially when you are the president of the United States, but it is also important say who is responsible for what happen and condemn them which in this case is neo-nazis and white supremacist, not trying to defend them and compare the founding fathers to the confederate generals.

Southside
August 16th, 2017, 11:50 PM
Did you actually go back and read my post? Because you are literally making the exact same argument as before.


Sure, I'll say Charleston was terrorism, as was the assassination of 5 police officers by a black man in Dallas last year. But there is a pretty large difference between an unprovoked and isolated shooting, and a car collision during major mob violence. But you would have already understood that if you actually read my post.

Yes I read your post and I don't really get your whole "instigated" point. The guy didn't go down to the protest/rally all the way from Ohio, get pelted with rocks and randomly decide to go drive into a crowd of people.

Youre not calling it for what it is, you're calling it a car collision instead of a deliberate act. Ill say it again, if it was vise versa you'd be calling it terrorism
just as you called the Dallas police ambush an terrorism attack.

Also, by your argument, one could say that police instigated the Dallas attacks by repeated acts of brutality and unjustified killings. It goes both ways my guy..

Drewboyy
August 16th, 2017, 11:56 PM
Racism is not a political view. Yes you can and should condemn violent protesters especially when you are the president of the United States, but it is also important say who is responsible for what happen and condemn them which in this case is neo-nazis and white supremacist, not trying to defend them and compare the founding fathers to the confederate generals.

Yes being racist is a horrible thing, but it's not illegal as long as no violence occurs. Violence only occured until after antifa showed up with shields and weapons screaming "kill yourselves" (which from what I've learned, is a very unprogressive thing to say). It's only right to condemn both groups or neither group. And he did the former.

You keep saying neo-nazis and white supremacists because you finally got a chance to unironically say it, but I think we get it- they are horrible people. However they aren't breaking any laws just for having those titles in the us. Just like the racist and sexist vice-mayor who started this entire problem, yet isn't getting any media coverage, didn't break any laws.

Dalcourt
August 17th, 2017, 12:01 AM
PlasmaHam I would never think of you as a Nazi...maybe more like a German Reichsbuerger if you have ever read about them...they represent some of what those confederate flag enthusiasts are.

In the video I don't see the people hurt or the woman killed doing anything violent against their attacker. She isn't throwing stones or whatever so how did she provoke anything with her violent actions? She was as peaceful as any Charleston churchgoers and just did what she felt was right.
This guy who killed her was as sad of a person like that Roof guy and no matter what you may or may not think about those other righteous alt-right marchers...this guy is as much as a terrorist as person shooting innocent police officers or church goers.

We have seen violent leftist protests in this country...a few turned really ugly but how come there aren't such ugly pics of mean Antifa from Charlottesville? Since there was hardly any violent leftists...Most violence was the counter protestant defending themselves against violent neonazis attacking them.

So finding excuses here to not call it an act of domestic terrorism is just silently condoning what was done. David Duke praised Trumps reaction to Charlottesville and every other white supremacist sees it like that, too.
So why is it so important to defend this view? Why do you so desperately want to share the view of KKK and company if you don't sympathise with them.

You can find excuses for a lot of things. You can argue whether the removal of those statues is right or wrong, you can argue about the police shooting cases that drew so much attention. Okay I would understand...

But here? I mean I would never defend the guy killing police officers in Dallas or the guy who did the same heremail in Baton Rouge....they were terrorists killing innocent people the same as Dylan Roof. So why should this person be any different? All of them committed acts of domestic terrorism and hate crimes in my opinion.
So I would really wanna know why this one here has to be defended so much?
He spread hatred, he killed and injured innocents who didn't do anything to him...so why?

So no matter how often you claim you have explained it I'm really awfully sorry but as a dumb person of color I simply don't get why it is so different for you.

mattsmith48
August 17th, 2017, 12:41 AM
Yes being racist is a horrible thing, but it's not illegal as long as no violence occurs. Violence only occured until after antifa showed up with shields and weapons screaming "kill yourselves" (which from what I've learned, is a very unprogressive thing to say). It's only right to condemn both groups or neither group. And he did the former.

I think what peanut just said can also be use as answer here nothing to add on here.

You keep saying neo-nazis and white supremacists because you finally got a chance to unironically say it, but I think we get it- they are horrible people. However they aren't breaking any laws just for having those titles in the us. Just like the racist and sexist vice-mayor who started this entire problem, yet isn't getting any media coverage, didn't break any laws.

What is that suppose to mean?

PlasmaHam
August 17th, 2017, 08:22 AM
PlasmaHam I would never think of you as a Nazi...maybe more like a German Reichsbuerger if you have ever read about them...they represent some of what those confederate flag enthusiasts are.I wasn't referring to you with that comment, but alright.

Also posting this here, since it seems clear to be that people here are falsely assuming that those who combat evil can't be evil in their own right.

http://i.imgur.com/b6A4I7v.jpg

Snowfox
August 17th, 2017, 03:56 PM
I wasn't referring to you with that comment, but alright.

Also posting this here, since it seems clear to be that people here are falsely assuming that those who combat evil can't be evil in their own right.

image (http://i.imgur.com/b6A4I7v.jpg)

What you dont seem to get now is that leftists really do worship Stalin.
They really do want to establish Stalinist society everywhere. 100% of them are like that

Drewboyy
August 17th, 2017, 04:29 PM
What is that suppose to mean?

Lmao it was a joke that people on the internet call anyone they don't agree with literally hitler.

The whole reason the protest started was to preserve the statue, and the vice-mayor of Charlottesville, Wes Bellamy, was the one who originally pushed for the removal of the statue. Wes Bellamy is anti-white and sexist, which is probably why he pushed so hard to take Lee down.

PlasmaHam
August 17th, 2017, 05:33 PM
What you dont seem to get now is that leftists really do worship Stalin.
They really do want to establish Stalinist society everywhere. 100% of them are like that

I mean, I will freely admit that there is a bunch of unearned sympathies and even praises of Stalin from the Left, to say that 100% of leftiests want a world wide communist society is a bit of an over-statement.

Dalcourt
August 17th, 2017, 05:43 PM
I mean, I will freely admit that there is a bunch of unearned sympathies and even praises of Stalin from the Left, to say that 100% of leftiests want a world wide communist society is a bit of an over-statement.

So now a relatively harmless pic from your side triggered an extremist response...maybe this helps you understand why Trump's "both sides" remarks was criticised so much. He might have meant one thing but the alt-right understood another thing...so thinking before speaking out loud might not be so wrong of an idea after all...

mattsmith48
August 17th, 2017, 06:13 PM
What you dont seem to get now is that leftists really do worship Stalin.
They really do want to establish Stalinist society everywhere. 100% of them are like that

Stalin he's the most murderous dictator in human history, who would worship someone like that? Even for Christians who worship a mass murderer with a rage problem that's too much. Maybe Trump if he owed him money or if Stalin had a tape of Trump getting pee on by Russian prostitutes (Just a joke not to take seriously).

PlasmaHam
August 17th, 2017, 06:58 PM
So now a relatively harmless pic from your side triggered an extremist response...maybe this helps you understand why Trump's "both sides" remarks was criticised so much. He might have meant one thing but the alt-right understood another thing...so thinking before speaking out loud might not be so wrong of an idea after all...
...

I don't even know how to respond here, you are making some pretty extreme leaps in logic. People make false assumptions about statements all the time, so what? We are all guilty of being on both sides of it. If you make a claim that white privilege exist, and then someone responds to your claim by advocating for a white-massacre, are you at fault for encouraging such a response?

Mars
August 17th, 2017, 07:36 PM
Refrain from straying further off topic please.

~Mars

Babs
August 17th, 2017, 09:12 PM
am i just imagining it or have the debates on this forum had a sharp drop in quality?

vtdc and rotw are jokes now

Dalcourt
August 17th, 2017, 10:33 PM
...

I don't even know how to respond here, you are making some pretty extreme leaps in logic. People make false assumptions about statements all the time, so what? We are all guilty of being on both sides of it. If you make a claim that white privilege exist, and then someone responds to your claim by advocating for a white-massacre, are you at fault for encouraging such a response?

I dunno what is so difficult to understand about this.

If you talk to your friends at home you can talk and joke whatever bullshit you want. But if you are the leader of a nation and whatever you say is noticed by the whole world you have to be a bit more careful.

If you say something and people get it wrong...who cares end of the day? But if the president of the US says something and the Nazis of the world cheer him...shouldn't he be a bit more careful if this wasn't his intention?

The whole world has criticised Trump for this sort of reactionary wording.

So I don't care whether he secretly cheers KKK or whatever it is his personal opinion but as a leader of a nation he should just learn how to make proper public statements.

So honestly I really don't know why this all is so hard to understand.


Off topic note:
In the outside world people never seem to have any problems understanding what I mean and answering my questions properly this seems just a problem for a small group of VT members, so should I really care?

Stronk Serb
August 17th, 2017, 11:19 PM
Well, to be fair, the KKK had a permit to protest. The Antifa are at fault for turni g the protests into violence. For the sake of clarity, if Black Lives Matter were protesting and the KKK came to beat them up, I would say the KKK is at fault.

mattsmith48
August 17th, 2017, 11:27 PM
Well, to be fair, the KKK had a permit to protest. The Antifa are at fault for turni g the protests into violence. For the sake of clarity, if Black Lives Matter were protesting and the KKK came to beat them up, I would say the KKK is at fault.

Are you comparing Black Lives Matter to the KKK? That's what it sounds like.

Dalcourt
August 17th, 2017, 11:34 PM
How the situation looked like
Charlottesville violence (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/16/charlottesville-violence-right-left-trump)

But sure it's all just fake news and people lying their asses off so that they can make those fine Neonazi and KKK make look bad.
It's really a shame.

So do you right wing supportes really believe in what you say or are you just there to troll such topics?

Babs
August 17th, 2017, 11:43 PM
Are you comparing Black Lives Matter to the KKK? That's what it sounds like.

i don't think he was placing the two groups on the same level (even so blm isn't all sunshine and daisies but that's another discussion for another time.) he was describing a hypothetical situation.

this post is a good example of what i mean when i say the quality of debates o this website have declined. it's always "ummm excuse me but..." rather than creating a comprehensive response.

Diana2002
August 18th, 2017, 08:58 AM
Wish we'd all could get along...is it too hard? :(
I always am sad when I see that some people refuse to talk and see the problem from the other's perspective, and that includes the other way around...

Stronk Serb
August 18th, 2017, 07:29 PM
Are you comparing Black Lives Matter to the KKK? That's what it sounds like.

Well, to be fair, some branches of BLM preach racism against whites, but that's not my point. The point is if you protest with a permit and the protest is peaceful, nobody has the right to commit violence against you, not BLM, not Antifa, not the KKK nor the National-Socialist Movement.

Sword of the morning
August 19th, 2017, 12:47 PM
Both sides are at fault here. As a nation that values freedom everyone has the right to meet and protest no matter there goal. I don't approve of white supremacy being Mexican. I also don't approve of Anitfa.