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NewLeafsFan
August 2nd, 2017, 10:44 PM
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has created a Fighting Climate Change plan. I don't have all of the details but an economist, Elizabeth May (Leader of the Green Party of Canada), and an ecologist have all agreed on this plan.

Trudeau is also continuing to invest in the non-renewable energy sources that we depend on. It seems to me that most leaders either ignore climate change and invest in non-renewable sources or vise versa. I think that working with both sectors will produce a solution that is desired by all.

DriveAlive
August 2nd, 2017, 11:04 PM
Trudeau is a scourge on the planet. He promotes deforestation and cruel animal trapping practices, seal hunts, etc. Not a role model for any nation.

Mars
August 2nd, 2017, 11:16 PM
Trudeau is a scourge on the planet. He promotes deforestation and cruel animal trapping practices, seal hunts, etc. Not a role model for any nation.

Does he?? Source pls

DriveAlive
August 2nd, 2017, 11:24 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/09/05/canada-deforestation-worst-in-world_n_5773142.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/17/stop-swooning-justin-trudeau-man-disaster-planet

Amethyst Rose
August 2nd, 2017, 11:47 PM
The VT Daily Chronicle :arrow2: Ramblings of the Wise

You did not include a news link in the OP of the thread and implied a debate, thus this is better suited here.

ShineintheDark
August 3rd, 2017, 07:17 AM
Trudeau is a scourge on the planet. He promotes deforestation and cruel animal trapping practices, seal hunts, etc. Not a role model for any nation. In simple terms, Neo-Libs are Neo-Libs and need to realise they don't really have the right to calls themselves Liberal at all.

Porpoise101
August 3rd, 2017, 08:59 AM
Trudeau is a scourge on the planet. He promotes deforestation and cruel animal trapping practices, seal hunts, etc. Not a role model for any nation.Nah the guy is as good as it gets. Just because he allows a longstanding industry to continue (in a period following a period of economic decline mind you) is not damning in any way. In Canada, you are seeing record economic growth and better well-being for the citizenry which is all you could want.

Now your sources do not even mention the seal hunts either. All they are saying is that Canada is exporting resources. I think the logging of virgin forests is bad, but it is not Trudeau's fault. After all, he did not start it.

As for climate change legislation in Canada, I would have to see what it actually entails. But honestly it is not like it even matters too much. Canada is such a small country that the only meaningful changes emission-wise will have to come from Asian nations and the US. Canada can help fight climate change by preserving its woodlands (which is a pressing concern as noted above).

DriveAlive
August 3rd, 2017, 10:05 AM
Nah the guy is as good as it gets. Just because he allows a longstanding industry to continue (in a period following a period of economic decline mind you) is not damning in any way. In Canada, you are seeing record economic growth and better well-being for the citizenry which is all you could want.

Now your sources do not even mention the seal hunts either. All they are saying is that Canada is exporting resources. I think the logging of virgin forests is bad, but it is not Trudeau's fault. After all, he did not start it.

As for climate change legislation in Canada, I would have to see what it actually entails. But honestly it is not like it even matters too much. Canada is such a small country that the only meaningful changes emission-wise will have to come from Asian nations and the US. Canada can help fight climate change by preserving its woodlands (which is a pressing concern as noted above).
He is only good at being a conman and a politician. Just because he did not start a policy does not mean that it is okay for it to continue. It would be like Obama just carrying on all of Bush's policies because those were the policies. Also, Canada has been flooding the US markets with cheap lumber. I did not grab an article about the seal hunts because I am pretty sure everyone is well aware of the horrible hunting and trapping policies of Canada by now without having to see pictures of it too.

mattsmith48
August 3rd, 2017, 10:27 AM
Halfway in his mandate, environment is Trudeau's second biggest failure, the first being the broken promise on electoral reform. We are still giving subsidies to oil companies even though he said he would stop them, he rushed to approved every pipeline projects he could and he as nothing to do with the fact two of them will never be build and he keeps fighting for Trans Mountain while the province that pipeline gets through is almost entirely on fire. He keeps fighting for a dying industry instead of focusing to try to get us out of our oil based economy. And all of those things and more are counter productive to is climate change plan which I also have problem with like the carbon tax being too fucking low, and the coal phase out for 2030 is too far from now and one province gets an exemption to this and the three others still using coal could also work to get an exemption.

Snowfox
August 3rd, 2017, 12:24 PM
Trudeau is a scourge on the planet. He promotes deforestation and cruel animal trapping practices, seal hunts, etc. Not a role model for any nation.

Whats wrong in seal hunting???? Depending how it is done and how much its just like regular hunting.

And for evreyone of you what in the hell is so bad about logging forests. Logging is normal and ok as long and just as long as you plant more forests at same time when you log old ones. That is called forestry.
Also sometimes logged forests end up being farmland which again is understandable and normal since we have 7 billion people to feed.

Forest industry is as much into business of harvesting timber as it is into planting more trees. mattsmith48 DriveAlive and Porpoise101 CanadienHockeyGuy and everyone else think about that first

mattsmith48
August 3rd, 2017, 12:30 PM
Whats wrong in seal hunting???? Depending how it is done and how much its just like regular hunting.

Well a lot of people find that killing seals by repeatedly hitting them with baseball bats cruel.

Snowfox
August 3rd, 2017, 12:37 PM
Well a lot of people find that killing seals by repeatedly hitting them with baseball bats cruel.

In here where I live that is outlawed. In case you want to hunt them you shoot them and minimum caliber is .308 normally .338 Lapua Magnum

Human
August 3rd, 2017, 07:01 PM
Seems kind of hypocritical when development in the Alberta oil sands is destroying the local ecosystem, with no signs of slowing down, in fact the rate of development is increasing. Maybe he should focus on slowing down these operations, or face the fact he's a hypocrite and is okay with devastating an ecosystem because its bringing great economic benefits.

Great that he's promoting non-renewable resources while at the same time one of the biggest economic operations in the world pumps out crude oil that releases 12% more harmful emissions than regular oil. Development in the oil sands leads to the creation of tailings ponds, huge artificial lakes of dirty water, hydrocarbons and toxins that cover over 77 square kilometres, and these grow by the day. The government claims that reclamation projects will solve this issue yet the current estimated time for the reclamation of a tailings pond is 40 years, and the land is 'reclaimed' not renewed back to it's former status. The unique habitat that was once there will never return, it will simply be replaced with fenland which is not the natural habitat of the area, and the government even considers 'reclamation' to be converting the land into agricultural land, not even attempting to bring it back to the old ecosystem. Already 0.19% of Alberta's boreal forest has been deforested which is a huge amount, despite the seemingly small % figure.

Other companies are offering solutions such as pumping the dirty lakes into old mines. Unsurprisingly these plans haven't been approved because it will lead to downstream rivers becoming polluted, further affecting the local ecosystem. Natives also live there, and are facing increased risk of disease because of the toxic byproducts being pumped into the environment.

Maybe when Canada takes a stance on this, I'll take them seriously in regards to the Environment, especially renewables x


(btw production is estimated to rise from 1.3 million barrels a day currently to 8 million barrels in 2035, which could last over 100 years)

NewLeafsFan
August 3rd, 2017, 10:20 PM
Trudeau is a scourge on the planet. He promotes deforestation and cruel animal trapping practices, seal hunts, etc. Not a role model for any nation.

That is so far from reality. It would be like saying all Canadians are communists.

Trudeau has a majority government. If you don't approve of him that's okay. He clearly doesn't need you.

mattsmith48
August 4th, 2017, 12:48 AM
That is so far from reality. It would be like saying all Canadians are communists.

Trudeau has a majority government. If you don't approve of him that's okay. He clearly doesn't need you.

Well ''majority'', since you know it was obtain through a unfair system where 39% of the votes gives you 100% of the power, not really part of the debate, but still good to precise it for people who might not know and still relevant since you know he's the one who was suppose to change that.

DriveAlive
August 4th, 2017, 02:03 AM
Whats wrong in seal hunting???? Depending how it is done and how much its just like regular hunting.

And for evreyone of you what in the hell is so bad about logging forests. Logging is normal and ok as long and just as long as you plant more forests at same time when you log old ones. That is called forestry.
Also sometimes logged forests end up being farmland which again is understandable and normal since we have 7 billion people to feed.

Forest industry is as much into business of harvesting timber as it is into planting more trees. mattsmith48 DriveAlive and Porpoise101 CanadienHockeyGuy and everyone else think about that first
The issue is that they are beating baby seals to death with clubs.

They do not replace the trees that they cut down.

mattsmith48
August 4th, 2017, 09:19 AM
They do not replace the trees that they cut down.

Some companies do, but its not a requirement.

Snowfox
August 4th, 2017, 10:46 AM
The issue is that they are beating baby seals to death with clubs.

They do not replace the trees that they cut down.

Sounds as stupid as farmer who doesnt plant but only harvests.

OK forests will grow back naturally even if you dont plant after harvesting. It just takes more time and is bad business.

Porpoise101
August 4th, 2017, 01:12 PM
The issue is that they are beating baby seals to death with clubs.
So what? At least the seal hunts are scientifically regulated and poaching is less of an issue than in other areas with seal hunts (see: Russia).
They do not replace the trees that they cut down.
Your argument against the Canadian government is pretty ridiculous. You blame Trudeau for not having a policy on logging. Is it really a policy to not have a policy? Or at least to unwittingly carry on the status quo? Has there even been a vote on this on Parliament Hill where Trudeau came out in favor of clear-cutting boreal forests? And even then, the Canadians are under no financial obligation to keep their trees and not exploit their natural resources. Why would they? There is only so much land that Canada can make into parks and reserves.

In the end, I'd rather that more forests be cut from places like Canada and Russia than places like the US, India, China, and Brazil. These places are closer to the equator, have more ecological diversity as a whole, and are more at risk at changing to a desert climate (which renders the land inhospitable when these areas actually need arable, productive land). If these places cut their forests, the climate will become drier and it will end up harming nature and people more.

This is one of the most irritating things about the deforestation problems going on around the world, from Canada, to Russia, to the Amazon, people are all for saving the trees. But when you propose a legitimate, sane, and economical solution like paying other countries for being forested, then you suddenly lose support. Everyone is for saving the environment until it comes out of their wallet.
---
Stop blaming Canada (and other countries like Norway) who exploit/export resources. They are under pressure to do so from other countries like US and China. It is on those larger countries to choose to consume less and become more efficient in their use of those resources.

And this whole issue of resources is totally irrelevant to something like Canada's climate policy which is based on emissions. In fact, I am pretty amazed that Russia and Canada even care about climate change. After all, they stand the most to benefit from it.

mattsmith48
August 4th, 2017, 02:03 PM
So what? At least the seal hunts are scientifically regulated and poaching is less of an issue than in other areas with seal hunts (see: Russia).

Your argument against the Canadian government is pretty ridiculous. You blame Trudeau for not having a policy on logging. Is it really a policy to not have a policy? Or at least to unwittingly carry on the status quo? Has there even been a vote on this on Parliament Hill where Trudeau came out in favor of clear-cutting boreal forests? And even then, the Canadians are under no financial obligation to keep their trees and not exploit their natural resources. Why would they? There is only so much land that Canada can make into parks and reserves.

We are actually last in protected land in the G7 which is unacceptable, so yes we could do more.

You are right we can't blame Trudeau for anything of what you said, but we can blame him for not doing anything to change it.

DriveAlive
August 5th, 2017, 02:31 AM
So what? At least the seal hunts are scientifically regulated and poaching is less of an issue than in other areas with seal hunts (see: Russia).

Your argument against the Canadian government is pretty ridiculous. You blame Trudeau for not having a policy on logging. Is it really a policy to not have a policy? Or at least to unwittingly carry on the status quo? Has there even been a vote on this on Parliament Hill where Trudeau came out in favor of clear-cutting boreal forests? And even then, the Canadians are under no financial obligation to keep their trees and not exploit their natural resources. Why would they? There is only so much land that Canada can make into parks and reserves.

In the end, I'd rather that more forests be cut from places like Canada and Russia than places like the US, India, China, and Brazil. These places are closer to the equator, have more ecological diversity as a whole, and are more at risk at changing to a desert climate (which renders the land inhospitable when these areas actually need arable, productive land). If these places cut their forests, the climate will become drier and it will end up harming nature and people more.

This is one of the most irritating things about the deforestation problems going on around the world, from Canada, to Russia, to the Amazon, people are all for saving the trees. But when you propose a legitimate, sane, and economical solution like paying other countries for being forested, then you suddenly lose support. Everyone is for saving the environment until it comes out of their wallet.
---
Stop blaming Canada (and other countries like Norway) who exploit/export resources. They are under pressure to do so from other countries like US and China. It is on those larger countries to choose to consume less and become more efficient in their use of those resources.

And this whole issue of resources is totally irrelevant to something like Canada's climate policy which is based on emissions. In fact, I am pretty amazed that Russia and Canada even care about climate change. After all, they stand the most to benefit from it.
I am never for cruelty against animals in any shape or form. Clubbing baby seals is fucked up.

You said it yourself, they are exploiting their resources. Canada is not some poor, third world nation. They have no excuse for their blatant hypocrisy when it comes to deforestation. And two wrongs do not make a right.

Porpoise101
August 5th, 2017, 12:02 PM
I am never for cruelty against animals in any shape or form. Clubbing baby seals is fucked up.Honestly I could care less about the cruelty, especially because they are going to be dead. This is just my opinion and I doubt that we can come to an agreement here. I just say that the Canadians do seal hunting better than other nations that do it when thinking about the ecology of it.
You said it yourself, they are exploiting their resources. Canada is not some poor, third world nation. They have no excuse for their blatant hypocrisy when it comes to deforestation. And two wrongs do not make a right.Right. And I would rather have the Canadians and Russians cut down their trees than the other countries to the south. If these northern countries do not supply wood, then it is going to be sourced from the more vulnerable countries like China, West Africa, USA, and other nations with more important forests.

I think you misunderstood my point. If anything, only rich, democratic countries should exploit natural resources because you know the process will be orderly and the wealth isn't going to criminals.

Supplying the world's material needs does not make you a hypocrite.

Snowfox
August 5th, 2017, 12:25 PM
Honestly I could care less about the cruelty, especially because they are going to be dead. This is just my opinion and I doubt that we can come to an agreement here. I just say that the Canadians do seal hunting better than other nations that do it when thinking about the ecology of it.
Right. And I would rather have the Canadians and Russians cut down their trees than the other countries to the south. If these northern countries do not supply wood, then it is going to be sourced from the more vulnerable countries like China, West Africa, USA, and other nations with more important forests.

I think you misunderstood my point. If anything, only rich, democratic countries should exploit natural resources because you know the process will be orderly and the wealth isn't going to criminals.

Supplying the world's material needs does not make you a hypocrite.

Its not exploiting. Its using.
If Canadian forest company cuts down acre of forest and doesnt bother to plant its just stupid and bad business. But even then forest will grow back naturally as long as that said acre is left alone.
But when we take some 3rd world country. Well then they cut down forest first and then turn that usually quite infertile land to farmland for few decades and after that few decades it turns into desert.
Reasons?
3rd world countries are so poor that people have to keep small farms on infertile lands to feed themself. They dont have enough money to buy fertilizers or proper farming machines and their society is so underdeveloped generally that there is usually no other ways to make living.
IN SHORT THEY CANT AFFORD TO THINK FAR INTO FUTURE. Even if they can they cant afford to do anything to it.

I can tell you from Scandinavian perspective (actually finland and sweden only) that forestry is big business and because forests are valuable resource economically we have more forests than what we had 100 years ago. Planting trees is investing to future. You have to plant forest and wait 50 years before you can harvest it. So you have to keep planting all the time.

Post edited. ~Amethyst Rose

Porpoise101
August 5th, 2017, 03:11 PM
Its not exploiting. Its using.Ok fine. I personally do not see anything wrong with the word 'exploiting', but I suppose it has a bad connotation. Exploitation is using that which is available to you for your gain. I do not see anything bad with that in this case.
If Canadian forest company cuts down acre of forest and doesnt bother to plant its just stupid and bad business. But even then forest will grow back naturally as long as that said acre is left alone.I actually think that this is the most optimal way to do this. Chopping down more virgin forest is unnecessary. But when you get this back to the discussion at hand, I am not sure if the logging industry is a political discussion at the forefront of Canadian politics. mattsmith48 should tell us.
But when we take some 3rd world country. Well then they cut down forest first and then turn that usually quite infertile land to farmland for few decades and after that few decades it turns into desert.
Reasons?
3rd world countries are so poor that people have to keep small farms on infertile lands to feed themself. They dont have enough money to buy fertilizers or proper farming machines and their society is so underdeveloped generally that there is usually no other ways to make living.
IN SHORT THEY CANT AFFORD TO THINK FAR INTO FUTURE. Even if they can they cant afford to do anything to it. I think you are missing a big reason, which is the climate. I agree with you on some of this, but the climate is a pretty big factor. In Canada, when they clearcut it becomes a tundra, grassland, or marsh.

Snowfox
August 5th, 2017, 05:49 PM
Porpoise101 when you clearcut forest it can not become tundra.

Definition of tundra is "area that is permanently too cold for forest" There is no forest on tundra at beginning.
This unless climate in said area suddenly cools down and forests die naturally because its too cold.

DriveAlive
August 6th, 2017, 02:33 AM
Honestly I could care less about the cruelty, especially because they are going to be dead. This is just my opinion and I doubt that we can come to an agreement here. I just say that the Canadians do seal hunting better than other nations that do it when thinking about the ecology of it.
Right. And I would rather have the Canadians and Russians cut down their trees than the other countries to the south. If these northern countries do not supply wood, then it is going to be sourced from the more vulnerable countries like China, West Africa, USA, and other nations with more important forests.

I think you misunderstood my point. If anything, only rich, democratic countries should exploit natural resources because you know the process will be orderly and the wealth isn't going to criminals.

Supplying the world's material needs does not make you a hypocrite.
I guess we will never agree on cruelty to animals or ecology.

NewLeafsFan
August 10th, 2017, 10:35 PM
Most ppl that are posting clearly need a reminder that this was a news topic that was posted in the Daily Chronical Forums and for some strange reason that I will never understand got moved here.

This is not a debate about majority governments in Canada (I know it doesn't require 51% of the popular vote) or seal hunting in Russia.