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View Full Version : Is it truth?


samuel15
May 22nd, 2017, 05:26 PM
If you travelled back in time to the year 5000bc and asked someone if the
Earth is flat and they would reply with "Yes." would they be lying even if they
did not know the Earth is round?

I started thinking about this when i told my friend something which turned out to not be true

Please give me your thoughts :)

SethfromMI
May 22nd, 2017, 05:33 PM
well in their case it is not a lie if they do not know. it is called ignorance. I know it does not always have the best connotations to it, but ignorance, the definition the denotation is simply lack of knowledge or information. now maybe its more proper to simply say you don't know instead of saying something that might not be true, but in their case, they are saying or making the assumption the earth is flat based on the limited knowledge they have. they have never walked into a sphere before. they're not misleading anyone, just giving the only answer they knew/would know. so I don't think it would be considered lying.

lying would be if they knew it wasn't flat yet tried to say it was anyways.

mattsmith48
May 22nd, 2017, 06:10 PM
I agree with SethfromMI it wouldn't be lying because they have no way know with the information available to them. Today of course we know the right answer, If you asked someone and they say its flat then yes they are lying.

lliam
May 22nd, 2017, 06:29 PM
Even in the Medival Ages it was already known that the earth isn't flat. But this knowledge is much older. Ancient Greeks, such as Aristotle, also had an idea of a round earth.

SethfromMI
May 22nd, 2017, 07:51 PM
Even in the Medival Ages it was already known that the earth isn't flat. But this knowledge is much older. Ancient Greeks, such as Aristotle, also had an idea of a round earth.

while you are certainly correct in your facts, the question was, were those people who had no way of knowing whether the earth was flat, round, or whatever, lying if they said the earth was flat? my argument was if they had no information able to be presented to them, if they truly had no way of knowing or simply didn't know the earth was round (which may be clear to us but wasn't always clear to every single individual) then it wasn't a lie if they said it was flat. it may not have been true, but a lie is usually when deception (for "good" or "bad" purposes) is being used. I just don't think it was as obvious to everyone back then or even later in history. I don't see it as a lie, rather more innocent ignorance.

a lie would be if I tried to tell you the earth is cubed knowing full well that's not the case.

I guess it really gets interesting these days are the people who actually do believe the earth is still flat. to be honest, I am still not sure whether their joking or serious. but even in that situation,if one truly, honestly believes the earth is flat, while they may be wrong, I don't think even in that situation they're trying to lie, because it is something they truly believe and is truth to them. wrongly misinformed? yes. trying to lie? unless they know in fact it really is round and are trying to just get fame, money, etc. then no (again, assuming it is what they truly, honestly believe).

mattsmith48
May 22nd, 2017, 08:32 PM
while you are certainly correct in your facts, the question was, were those people who had no way of knowing whether the earth was flat, round, or whatever, lying if they said the earth was flat? my argument was if they had no information able to be presented to them, if they truly had no way of knowing or simply didn't know the earth was round (which may be clear to us but wasn't always clear to every single individual) then it wasn't a lie if they said it was flat. it may not have been true, but a lie is usually when deception (for "good" or "bad" purposes) is being used. I just don't think it was as obvious to everyone back then or even later in history. I don't see it as a lie, rather more innocent ignorance.

a lie would be if I tried to tell you the earth is cubed knowing full well that's not the case.

I guess it really gets interesting these days are the people who actually do believe the earth is still flat. to be honest, I am still not sure whether their joking or serious. but even in that situation,if one truly, honestly believes the earth is flat, while they may be wrong, I don't think even in that situation they're trying to lie, because it is something they truly believe and is truth to them. wrongly misinformed? yes. trying to lie? unless they know in fact it really is round and are trying to just get fame, money, etc. then no (again, assuming it is what they truly, honestly believe).

People who believe the earth is flat are conspiracy theorist, I would say its more denying than lying.

themanconnor
May 22nd, 2017, 09:57 PM
Lying is deliberate and they don't know so it is not a lie they are just ignorant

mattsmith48
May 22nd, 2017, 10:24 PM
Lying is deliberate and they don't know so it is not a lie they are just ignorant

Lying is not always deliberate

ShineintheDark
May 23rd, 2017, 01:13 PM
Lying is intentional so incorrect information given when a person believes is not a lie

BlackParadePixie
May 23rd, 2017, 02:19 PM
You can't lie about the earth being round if you actually have no knowledge of it being so.

PlasmaHam
May 25th, 2017, 10:40 PM
I agree with SethfromMI it wouldn't be lying because they have no way know with the information available to them. Today of course we know the right answer, If you asked someone and they say its flat then yes they are lying.

Agreed, except for one point.

I think, if there is someone who truly believes the Earth is flat, then they wouldn't be committing the moral wrong of lying by saying so. Lying, by nearly all interpretations, religious and secular, is a deliberate act meant for the purpose of deception. Something could be scientific fact, but if a person is either ignorant of it or honestly sees it as false, then their saying that the fact is false is not a lie.

Lying is not the absence of truth, lying is the deliberate modification and removal of truth. Someone could be wrong, and not be a liar. Someone could be right, but yet also be a liar.

mattsmith48
May 25th, 2017, 11:59 PM
Agreed, except for one point.

I think, if there is someone who truly believes the Earth is flat, then they wouldn't be committing the moral wrong of lying by saying so. Lying, by nearly all interpretations, religious and secular, is a deliberate act meant for the purpose of deception. Something could be scientific fact, but if a person is either ignorant of it or honestly sees it as false, then their saying that the fact is false is not a lie.

Lying is not the absence of truth, lying is the deliberate modification and removal of truth. Someone could be wrong, and not be a liar. Someone could be right, but yet also be a liar.

And that's why I later said this

People who believe the earth is flat are conspiracy theorist, I would say its more denying than lying.

PlasmaHam
May 26th, 2017, 07:46 AM
And that's why I later said this

I wouldn't say it has to be denial, simply having differing opinion and honestly believing that your opinion is true.

SethfromMI
May 26th, 2017, 08:32 AM
I wouldn't say it has to be denial, simply having differing opinion and honestly believing that your opinion is true.

I can see this. I actually do know someone who believes the earth is flat. who honestly believes. nice guy, don't think he would ever intentionally mislead someone, but believes the earth is flat. I don't agree with hid argument obviously, but to him, the "evidence" he has supports his beliefs and he believes it is true. I guess I really wouldn't call his belief denial, though I guess I can also see how it could be interpreted that way.

when I think of someone telling a lie, I think of someone who knows the truth, but then speaks (writes, whatever) in order to try to gain some type of personal gain/benefit (whether it be money, power, influence, attention, whatever).

It is like religion. I do believe there are some people who lie about religion in order to get something. other people, whether I believe or agree with them or not, honestly believe it is true. it is not denial to them, to them it is the truth.

mattsmith48
May 26th, 2017, 01:30 PM
I wouldn't say it has to be denial, simply having differing opinion and honestly believing that your opinion is true.

I can see this. I actually do know someone who believes the earth is flat. who honestly believes. nice guy, don't think he would ever intentionally mislead someone, but believes the earth is flat. I don't agree with hid argument obviously, but to him, the "evidence" he has supports his beliefs and he believes it is true. I guess I really wouldn't call his belief denial, though I guess I can also see how it could be interpreted that way.

when I think of someone telling a lie, I think of someone who knows the truth, but then speaks (writes, whatever) in order to try to gain some type of personal gain/benefit (whether it be money, power, influence, attention, whatever).

It is like religion. I do believe there are some people who lie about religion in order to get something. other people, whether I believe or agree with them or not, honestly believe it is true. it is not denial to them, to them it is the truth.

Even if you strongly believe the Earth is flat its still denying. A lot of people strongly believe that 6,000 years ago God created all the Animals and plants as they are today, they believe that is the truth even though we have multiple scientific evidence that its not even close to the truth. Those people are not lying, but they are denying every scientific facts that disprove their believe.

SethfromMI
May 27th, 2017, 08:24 AM
Even if you strongly believe the Earth is flat its still denying. A lot of people strongly believe that 6,000 years ago God created all the Animals and plants as they are today, they believe that is the truth even though we have multiple scientific evidence that its not even close to the truth. Those people are not lying, but they are denying every scientific facts that disprove their believe.

science cannot prove there is no God. science is not God. this is where I have to very strongly, 100% disagree with you. you cannot say everyone who disagrees with every single scientific fact is a denier. not all scientists agree with each other. so what do you do with that? which of the scientists are deniers?

mattsmith48
May 27th, 2017, 11:33 AM
science cannot prove there is no God. science is not God. this is where I have to very strongly, 100% disagree with you. you cannot say everyone who disagrees with every single scientific fact is a denier. not all scientists agree with each other. so what do you do with that? which of the scientists are deniers?

I wasn't talking about God it self, I was talking about the believe that God created every living things as it is today, 6,000 years ago, we have scientific evidence that completely disproves that, if you still believe the earth is 6,000 years old and all the animals and plants were created as they are today it is science denial. They are things scientist don't agree on it's not denying they just don't have enough evidence to decide who is right.