PDA

View Full Version : 'Transwoman' wins Female International Weightlifting Competition


PlasmaHam
March 21st, 2017, 02:19 PM
Kiwi weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has dominated her first major competition, taking out the Australian International in Melbourne on a night she made history as the first transgender athlete to represent New Zealand.

Hubbard, 39, won the women’s over 90kg division at the Melbourne event, setting four unofficial national records in the process. Hubbard lifted a combined total of 268kg – 19kg better than silver medallist Iuniarra Sipaia of Samoa.

Garry Marshall, president of the Olympic Weightlifting New Zealand, said Hubbard, who once competed as Gavin Hubbard, will be picked for the Commonwealth Games, form permitting.

Source (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399)
So in basic terms, a guy who thinks he is a girl uses his biological advantages to win an international competition against natural women, and also broke numerous national female records in the process. Is there a future for women in sports if mediocre male athletes can "switch-over" and annihilate the competition like this?

Living For Love
March 21st, 2017, 02:28 PM
Hahahahaha, this is kind of hilarious, honestly. And if someone dared to criticise him for being born a man and having an unfair advantage, he would just probably pull the "transphobic" card and get away with it xD

Mars
March 21st, 2017, 04:03 PM
It's like boxers that lose weight to go in the class underneath them and beat up on lighter guys. Yeah, it's unfair sometimes n it sucks, but hey it happens. It's whatever tbh. As long as it's legit transition n not them just saying their a woman to get away with it.

ChloeF
March 22nd, 2017, 01:48 AM
Source (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399)
So in basic terms, a guy who thinks he is a girl uses his biological advantages to win an international competition against natural women, and also broke numerous national female records in the process. Is there a future for women in sports if mediocre male athletes can "switch-over" and annihilate the competition like this?
I don't think competing at the Commonwealth games will happen. l'm pretty sure athletes are subject to genetic testing like the Olympics, if your genetics say you're male, you cant compete in female competition and vice versa.

Periphery
March 22nd, 2017, 03:33 AM
This is a complicated problem here. I would be okay with it if the person already went through surgery and well, had their gender changed permanently. Anyone can pull this off and this is bullshit.
Living For Love That's the main problem here. You can't actually say he (she?) Is wrong because you'll look like an asshole to the already cancerous SJW community. They're offended so easily it only makes other LGBT people look like left worshipping braindead assholes.

Babs
March 24th, 2017, 12:38 AM
i tried to care but fuckin uhhhh why should i. you make it sound like an elaborate scheme. no one's gonna get their dick cut off and sold to indochina so he can compete against weaker opponents.
however, i do agree that biological sex has a lot to do with sports and that it makes more sense to categorize people by that in this context.

bentheplayer
March 24th, 2017, 12:42 AM
The degree of ignorance flaunted based on various replies to transgender issues never fail to astound me.

So in basic terms, a guy who thinks he is a girl uses his biological advantages to win an international competition against natural women, and also broke numerous national female records in the process. Is there a future for women in sports if mediocre male athletes can "switch-over" and annihilate the competition like this?

First off this assertion is extreme as transgender male are allowed to compete against males too. No one will be crazy enough to claim to be transgender just for the sake of winning some meaningless medal. Based on this study (http://jrci.cgpublisher.com/product/pub.301/prod.4/m.2/fid=1836884/R15_47780_RaceTimesforTransgenderAthletes_FinalOF.pdf?), it has shown that transgender women run distance races at approximately the same level, for their respective gender, both before and after gender transition. People who pull this excuse are likely athletes who will never win even if these transgender people did not compete. As the saying goes, a poor workman always blames the tools. The fact is there is no total fairness in sports. Every athlete, cisgender or transgender, will always have their own inherent advantages and disadvantages. People come in all shapes and sizes. For example, we don’t disqualify Michael Phelps for having super-long arms; that’s just a competitive advantage he has in his sport. We also don’t regulate height in the WNBA or NBA; being tall is just an advantage. For as long as sports have been around, there will always be people who have had advantages over others. A universal level playing field in sports or any other area (like academics) does not exist.

Hahahahaha, this is kind of hilarious, honestly. And if someone dared to criticise him for being born a man and having an unfair advantage, he would just probably pull the "transphobic" card and get away with it xD

People will call you transphobic if you have an emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards transgender. You cannot be a transphobic if you do not have those feelings. However if you think that a transgender female will still always have an automatic advantage after going for a sex change operation and is started on hormone therapy then you are ignorant since research has shown otherwise in certain sports. Granted not all sports have been researched upon but current evidence seem to favor the idea that transgender females do not have an unfair advantage against 46,XX females in sports.

I don't think competing at the Commonwealth games will happen. l'm pretty sure athletes are subject to genetic testing like the Olympics, if your genetics say you're male, you cant compete in female competition and vice versa.

The mere mention of gender testing suggests how ignorant you are on this issue. Since the 1950 when sex verification was first introduced into sports there still hasn’t been a consensus on the appropriate test. Chromosome testing was done in the past at the Olympics but was later abolished as it was proven to be inconclusive in proving maleness. Genetic testing has long been criticised by geneticist and doctors such as endocrinologists as women with sexual developmental defects (like psueohermaphroditism) will be negatively impacted. There is also a condition called androgen insensitivity where a 46 XY genotype will end up being a female phenotype as cells fail to respond to testosterone.

Even if gender was based on testosterone levels, women who suffer from hyperandrogenism will fail such tests.

ChloeF
March 24th, 2017, 01:00 AM
The mere mention of gender testing suggests how ignorant you are on this issue. Since the 1950 when sex verification was first introduced into sports there still hasn’t been a consensus on the appropriate test. Chromosome testing was done in the past at the Olympics but was later abolished as it was proven to be inconclusive in proving maleness. Genetic testing has long been criticised by geneticist and doctors such as endocrinologists as women with sexual developmental defects (like psueohermaphroditism) will be negatively impacted. There is also a condition called androgen insensitivity where a 46 XY genotype will end up being a female phenotype as cells fail to respond to testosterone.

Even if gender was based on testosterone levels, women who suffer from hyperandrogenism will fail such tests.[/QUOTE]

We'll see what happens come Commonwealth Games time then l guess. l didn't make any claims to being an expert either

lliam
March 24th, 2017, 01:36 AM
What's new about it? All female athletes of the old German Democratic Republic ( GDR ) were alleged to be transgender men. :D And according to rumors I once overheard, all the successes of female Russian athletes of that times may've been based on a similar concept.


Whether this is true or not, the world isn't gonna crazy just in our times.

So, to me, that's yesterday news. But it was fun to read.

Living For Love
March 24th, 2017, 08:32 AM
People will call you transphobic if you have an emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards transgender. You cannot be a transphobic if you do not have those feelings. However if you think that a transgender female will still always have an automatic advantage after going for a sex change operation and is started on hormone therapy then you are ignorant since research has shown otherwise in certain sports. Granted not all sports have been researched upon but current evidence seem to favor the idea that transgender females do not have an unfair advantage against 46,XX females in sports.
I'm curious to see that evidence xD Even if the testosterone levels of the transgender athlete were below the permitted limit, you can't simply ignore the effects testosterone had in the development of the man before his transitioning to woman. Even after all the surgeries and hormone treatment, a transgender woman is not and will never be biologically equal to a woman. What you could also argue were the criteria one has to meet in order to be able to enter the competition. If the criteria is "you have to have less than x nmol/L serum testosterone", then I guess even some men with hypogonadism could be allowed, but if the criteria is "you have to be a woman", and being a woman is 46,XX, then no, transgender people can't be allowed.

bentheplayer
March 24th, 2017, 10:14 AM
I'm curious to see that evidence xD Even if the testosterone levels of the transgender athlete were below the permitted limit, you can't simply ignore the effects testosterone had in the development of the man before his transitioning to woman. Even after all the surgeries and hormone treatment, a transgender woman is not and will never be biologically equal to a woman. What you could also argue were the criteria one has to meet in order to be able to enter the competition. If the criteria is "you have to have less than x nmol/L serum testosterone", then I guess even some men with hypogonadism could be allowed, but if the criteria is "you have to be a woman", and being a woman is 46,XX, then no, transgender people can't be allowed.

First off I am not claiming to be an expert on transgender issues in sports but am merely pointing out your ignorance when you made those statements alleging transgender will pull the transphobic card and that trasngender women have an unfair advantage. Throughout the history of the Olympics games and by extension international sporting events, gender issues have never been an obvious answer. Even women were not allowed to compete in the first 50 odd years of the modern olympics but were gradually involved due to gender equality ideas.

The purpose of sports is to unite individuals, increase participation and to eliminate discrimination from sports. Also there is no such thing as total fairness or any absolute definition of gender given the various controversies over the definition of gender and supposed fairness. There are also cases of people who are genetically male 46XY but phenotypically female due to androgen insensitivity. The point being gender is a complex issue and is best left to the experts. If the IOC thinks that based on current evidence, transgender athletes be allowed based on certain criteria then so be it. However, you using it as a talking point to diss transgenders is pathetic and despicable.

PlasmaHam
March 25th, 2017, 04:53 PM
bentheplayer you completely avoided the question. Does it not undermine the success of natural women if men come over and blows away the competition? And given the "natural advantages don't matter" attitude of yours, how about we completely abolish gendered sports and simply have one integrated group? After all, natural advantages don't matter.

Saying that since transgender runners are equal to natural runners is a clear indicator that there are no biological advantages is a false comparison. Running is an endurance sport, and in endurance sports men are only slightly better than women. The record marathon time for men and women are only 10 minutes different. Weight-lifting is a strength sport, in which men are greatly superior to women. The record deadlift weight for men is over 500lbs greater than that of a women. As such, it is not ridiculous to say that the slight endurance difference between men and women is nullified during transgenderism. Especially so since hormonal therapies have been shown to weaken the heart and increase the risks for heart problems. However, to preclude that men would lose their nearly 100% strength advantage over women during hormonal therapy seems very illogical.

However, lets use your logic and preclude that a decrease in endurance directly correlates into an overall physical decrease. I did some quick calculations and figured out the endurance difference between men and women, and it falls at around 10%. By using your flawed logic, and saying that there is a direct correlation between endurance and strength, the transgender would still be superior to the natural woman in terms of brute strength. The only way that you can defend your argument is to say that there isn't a direct correlation between strength and endurance, which at the same time completely undermines your current argument.

(I have just realized I may have misunderstood your statement. I am not sure though so I am going to leave this counter-argument up. If so, then just ignore the last two paragraphs)


There is no reason to be afraid of it as long as you read the literature more extensively rather than attempting to frame your own preconceived ideas on trangender issues. If people were truly keen on learning more about transgender issues then they would be aware of or at least ask about them rather than ridiculing them.
Isn't it prejudient to assert that Living For Love has a lesser degree of knowledge and is lesser read than you regarding transgender issues, despite the fact that your discussion has barely scratched the surface of those issues? Isn't it prejudient to assume Living for Love is afraid of transgenderism? Isn't it also prejudient to assume that people who don't support transgenderism don't ever talk to transgenders?

Beauregard
March 25th, 2017, 11:19 PM
PlasmaHam: I don't feel like bentheplayer is prejudiced here. I have read through a lot of things Living For Love, you and a couple of other members in this forum say about transgender people.

I have a transgender younger family member and reading all those people's comments on transgenderism makes me really feel sick sometimes.

But to go back on topic. Nobody would "chop his dick off" to win championship or a gold medal. Not feeling "at home" in your own body is horrible enough those people don't need anybody else's childish comments.
There are rules in sports championships. If the rules allow it it is okay, there are a few gray areas if you people take the time to read through the history of sports events, rules or rule changes in sports over the years. And there are other examples of things that give a certain person or group and " unfair advantage" aren't there?

lyhom
April 30th, 2017, 12:49 PM
(snip)

http://i.imgur.com/r0fXL4q.gif

lyhom
April 30th, 2017, 02:03 PM
side note: mods don't publicize infractions and stuff like that, so for all you know ben could have had action taken against him for whatever reason, we just don't know because quite frankly it's none of our fucking business

also, as said before, if you really thought that he was breaking the rules, you'd report the posts and let the mods look at it quietly without making a big deal about it

Mars
April 30th, 2017, 03:32 PM
This thread has gotten far out of hand and is therefore being locked.

If you believe an individual is breaking the rules, report it. Don't go on full rants and call out staff members because you believe they are not doing their job. We cannot pay attention to every single post and thread and potential rule breaker, which is why we appreciate things being reported.

Refrain from arguing or bashing others and debating in threads that are not in ROTW.