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Flapjack
September 16th, 2016, 08:28 AM
What do you guys think of the islamophobia that is rooted deep within the right wing of western countries like France, the UK and the USA.

Do you believe Islamophobia is a thing? Why do you think this?

Thought I would make this thread as the debate takes over so many other threads.

user-999
September 16th, 2016, 08:49 AM
Yes I do think that this is a thing. For example s few days a go in germany there was a fight 80 germans attecked 20 refuges, and there has been 700 attacks reported in germany. And also I do think that there has been many attacks in other coutries too. In my opinion many people think that all Muslims are terorists and they have been thought from little age to be a terorist. Personaly I don't look at them as terorists. Those are my thoughts.

mattsmith48
September 16th, 2016, 09:26 AM
Yes it is a thing. I think it as blown out of proportion because of right wing politician fear mongering about Muslims and terrorists, some do believe what they say but others are just inventing shit to take advantage of the fear of their population to gain votes and support

devotionnel
September 16th, 2016, 12:06 PM
others are just inventing shit to take advantage of the fear of their population to gain votes and support

This is exactly what I was thinking.

People will listen to anyone who's above them - in some cases, it is politicians fear mongering them - just so they will get the more secure vote. But, as I've said before in the past, it's like the saying "all pennies are coins, but not all coins are pennies" when discussing ISIS; that all ISIS members are Muslim, but not all Muslims are ISIS members. Some members of the public (in countries such as USA and in the UK) don't exactly know this yet.

Periphery
September 16th, 2016, 01:25 PM
It's a thing, just like anything else the big guys will find to scare us.

What makes me sad though is that there are people out there that believe that all Muslims are bad people but yet deny what the Christians did in Europe, oh and the crusades.

The problem here is most people follow their leader (Trump duh) when he says they are bad because they are too lazy to actually get informed themselves and believe anythint that is being spoon fed to them. What's even worse is that ISIS isn't even about religion anymore, it's about money. Like why do people still believe these guys are actual Muslims?

Flapjack
September 16th, 2016, 02:12 PM
It currently feels like the calm before the storm here :')

ThisBougieLife
September 16th, 2016, 02:46 PM
Yes, it is a thing. Yes, it has some root in reality: right now there are terrorist attacks committed in Western nations by people who identify as Muslims or are from Muslim backgrounds. There is a war going on in the Middle East in which extremist Muslim terrorist groups are involved. There are reasons why Islam is associated with violence and terrorism.

At the same time, Islamophobia is a gut reaction that has no real benefit. For one thing, it unfairly characterizes anyone who identifies as Muslim with extremists that the majority of Muslims probably want nothing to do with. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about Islam and Muslims. A little knowledge goes a long way. It would be no more fair that generalization any other group. We tend to turn a blind eye to unfair generalizations until we are the ones being generalized.

Another issue is that fostering a distrust and hatred toward a certain group only further alienates that group. ISIS specifically recruits Muslims in Western countries who feel disillusioned, isolated, and hopeless. Islamophobia only serves to create more people who feel this way, and more potential fodder for ISIS and other extremist groups.

Some people seem to think there must be a choice between either being Islamophobic or denying that there is any problem with Islam-inspired violence. One can do the latter without being the former. The people who can most help prevent more Muslims in Western nations from becoming radicalized are other Muslims; if we avoid them and shun them we're part of the problem.

PlasmaHam
September 16th, 2016, 03:16 PM
Quran 2:193-195 "And engage in war with them until there be no sedition and the religion be to Allah. So if they desist, so there will be no transgression except on the unjust. The forbidden month for the forbidden month and all the forbidden things are retaliation, so whoever commits transgress against you, so transgress against him similar to how he transgressed against you. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is the fearer.

Quran 2:190 And engage in war for the sake of Allah against those who engage in war against you, and do not transgress. Surely Allah does not love the transgressor. And kill them wherever you find them, and get them out of where they got you out. And the sedition is worse than killing. Do not engage in war with them at the forbidden mosque until they engage in war with you in it. So if they engage in war with you, so kill them; likewise is the reward for infidels(unbelievers.)

Quran 2:216-218 "War is decreed to you, and it is hated by you. And perhaps you may hate something, and it is good for you; and perhaps you love something, and it is evil for you. And Allah knows, and you do not. They ask you concerning war in the forbidden month(s). Say "engaging in war in it is big, and to prevent (others) from the way of the forbidden mosque, and to get it's people out of it is bigger with Allah. And the sedition is bigger than the killing." And they still engage in war with you until they apostate you from your religion, if they can. And whoever apostates among you, from his religion, so he is to death as an infidel. So those, their works will be voided in this world and in the herafter. And those are the companions of the fire, and they will abide in it forever. Surely those who have believed and those who emigrated and performed Jihad for the sake of Allah, those hope for Allah's mercy."

Quran 2:223 "Your women are a field to you, so enter your field (have sex) as please, and send beforehand(good) for yourselves.

Quran 2:244 "And engage in war for the sake of Allah, and know that Allah is hearing, knowing.

I'm going through the Quran on my own right now. I just bought a physical English copy, and has just finished the second chapter. Here are a few verses from just chapter 2.
The problem here is most people follow their leader (Trump duh) when he says they are bad because they are too lazy to actually get informed themselves and believe anythint that is being spoon fed to them. What's even worse is that ISIS isn't even about religion anymore, it's about money. Like why do people still believe these guys are actual Muslims?
Maybe you should get informed before claiming everyone that disagrees with you isn't.

Vlerchan
September 16th, 2016, 03:49 PM
I haven't read the Qu'ran but I do law.

Quran 2:193-195 "And engage in war with them until there be no sedition and the religion be to Allah. So if they desist, so there will be no transgression except on the unjust. The forbidden month for the forbidden month and all the forbidden things are retaliation, so whoever commits transgress against you, so transgress against him similar to how he transgressed against you. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is the fearer.
The incites follows to stomp those who be seditious, or who incite revolution.

It precedes to encourage the trade of an eye, for an eye, against those who break the rules.

Quran 2:190 And engage in war for the sake of Allah against those who engage in war against you, and do not transgress. Surely Allah does not love the transgressor. And kill them wherever you find them, and get them out of where they got you out. And the sedition is worse than killing. Do not engage in war with them at the forbidden mosque until they engage in war with you in it. So if they engage in war with you, so kill them; likewise is the reward for infidels(unbelievers.)
Engage in war against those who choose to engage in war with you, but do not breach the sacred rules of war (transgress).

Do not engage in war with them at the forbidden Mosque until they engage with you. Infidel here seems to be reserved for those who choose to fight Muslims.

War is decreed to you, and it is hated by you. And perhaps you may hate something, and it is good for you; and perhaps you love something, and it is evil for you. And Allah knows, and you do not. They ask you concerning war in the forbidden month(s). Say "engaging in war in it is big, and to prevent (others) from the way of the forbidden mosque, and to get it's people out of it is bigger with Allah. And the sedition is bigger than the killing." And they still engage in war with you until they apostate you from your religion, if they can. And whoever apostates among you, from his religion, so he is to death as an infidel. So those, their works will be voided in this world and in the herafter. And those are the companions of the fire, and they will abide in it forever. Surely those who have believed and those who emigrated and performed Jihad for the sake of Allah, those hope for Allah's mercy."
War is set against it and you hate it but that is not to claim that it can't be good for you. Enemies will seek to wear you down until you apostate from your religion, but apostates should be put to death.

I guess death to apostates is a bit controversial.

Quran 2:223 "Your women are a field to you, so enter your field (have sex) as please, and send beforehand(good) for yourselves.
I had to google this one.

It is narrated in al-Saheehayn that the Jews used to say that if a man had intercourse with his wife in her vagina from behind, the child would be born with a squint. The Muslims asked the Prophet [peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him] about that, then this verse was revealed: “.…Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so come unto your tilth as ye like, but first provide something for your souls, and remain conscious of God, and know that you are destined to meet Him…” [ al-Baqara 2:223 ]
Degenerate.

Quran 2:244 "And engage in war for the sake of Allah, and know that Allah is hearing, knowing.
Meaningless without context.

Stronk Serb
September 16th, 2016, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't be branding all Muslims as terrorists, but I would concurr that adult Muslim males from cultural backgrounds of current hotbeds of radical Islam currently have a higher chance of terrorist attacks or crime against women. Look at the rape of Cologne or the attacks in Europe. For reducing crime, I would just warn them that if they misbehaved, I would ship them back to Assad so they can clear minefields with their feet or act as human shields and I would be true to that promise. For terrorism I would allow enough refugees that is not a strain on the economy and law enforcement.

Porpoise101
September 16th, 2016, 04:48 PM
Yes, there is Islamophobia. As the 15th anniversary of 9-11 has passed, hate crimes against Muslims have spiked according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. This shows that people do not trust Muslims even after years.

jamie_n5
September 18th, 2016, 08:16 PM
Yeah I believe it is a true thing. With all the problems in the middle East and terrorist attacks on the USA on September 11, 2001 and the bombs and terrorist attacks on France and England and other places. Yes I believe it is very much alive and on peoples minds. Also when you consider that all Muslims are taught that if they can't convert other religions to Muslim then those people should be killed. So much for me believing that Muslims are a peaceful people.
I will add this to my post. I got this email yesterday.



I AM ONE OF YOUR 3 and please note the part I highlighted below. You hear of it every day on the news.



THIS ISSUE IS EVEN MORE PRONOUNCED IN MY THINKING AT THIS TIME SINCE THE MARINE WHOSE DAUGHTER (IN LA PLATA , MD SCHOOL ) REC'D A FAILING GRADE IN HISTORY BECAUSE SHE REFUSED TO TAKE THE ISLAM STUDY COURSE ....INCIDENTALLY NO ALTERNATIVE COURSE WAS OFFERED. HER MARINE FATHER BROUGHT THIS TO THE FOREFRONT ...SINCE HE FOUGHT IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN , AND IS VERY AWARE OF HOW DANGEROUS THIS RELIGION IS...DEFINITELY NOT ONE OF PEACE.



When we get 100,000,000, that's one hundred million willing Christians to BOND together, voice their concerns and vote, we can take back America with God's help. Become one of the One hundred million... Then let's get 200 million. It can be done just by sending this email to your friends. Do the math. It only takes a single willing heart and a fed up SOUL. God Bless America and Shine your light on Her!

Now President Obama is encouraging schools to teach the Quran for extra credit, while at the same time, they cannot even talk about the Bible, God, pray, or salute the American Flag.

The direction this country is headed should strike fear in the heart of every Christian, especially knowing that the Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be converted, they should be annihilated.

Send this to three people, or even one hundred ! And, send it the person who Sent it to you!..To let them know that indeed, it was sent out to many more.

Paraxiom
September 18th, 2016, 08:19 PM
For sure there is, not much else I can add to what most others have said in this thread. The Special One also has a good point with the Crusades and such.

I'll add what I said in the Leaked Footage of UK Islamic School thread as I see it as relevant here:


I had an image come up in my head many months ago of three people standing together in a room, one representing Christianity, another Judaism, and the third Islam. All have done malevolent acts in the past, but both the Christianity and Judaism vocally attack Islam for its supposed worst aspects, along with Christianity being great friends with Judaism and vice-versa, also secretly admiring themselves as great people by being innocent of anything similar to Islam in the past.

lliam
September 18th, 2016, 10:33 PM
Do you believe Islamophobia is a thing? Why do you think this?

The third muslim joined my kindred this year by marrying an older cousin of mine.So my kindred has nearly quintupled by these marriages. Now I've literally distant relatives in Turkey, in Turkish Kurdistan and Morocco. And in a way, I think that's cool.

So, Islamophobia isn't a thing to me. Otherwise I would've to call myself a hypocrite. And all in all, there are so many phobias surrounding me all day that I wonder why I haven't developed any phobia yet.

As for that, I sometimes really feel as I'm a social phobialess outsider. :D



Yes I do think that this is a thing. For example s few days a go in germany there was a fight 80 germans attecked 20 refuges, and there has been 700 attacks reported in germany. And also I do think that there has been many attacks in other coutries too. In my opinion many people think that all Muslims are terorists and they have been thought from little age to be a terorist. Personaly I don't look at them as terorists. Those are my thoughts.


well, there are radical idiots everywhere on this globe.
but especially in some parts of Eastern Germany.

sometimes I feel like to contact the IS to send all those suicide bombers to this places. In a strange way, it seems as would it be a win-win-situation then. :D

But that view depends on how angry or frustrated I'm reading about those xenophobic attacks.

Periphery
September 19th, 2016, 12:29 AM
Jamie_n Is there actual proof are are there actual facts to support your claim that ALL Muslims are being thaught to kill people with a different religion? I don't see how that is true in the slightest way because psssst, then why the hell are Muslim countries like Malaysia and cities like Dubai touristic? Wouldn't we all die?

Vlerchan
September 19th, 2016, 02:14 AM
Also when you consider that all Muslims are taught that if they can't convert other religions to Muslim then those people should be killed.
This is utter crap.

I also presume Islamic history doesn't get thought at your school because you'd also realise that historical Islam was relatively speaking very benign to heretics. This occurred to the extent that Eastern Orthodox Christians used to ask that the Muslims conquered their lands which the Catholics held.

...SINCE HE FOUGHT IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN , AND IS VERY AWARE OF HOW DANGEROUS THIS RELIGION IS...DEFINITELY NOT ONE OF PEACE.
I presume he picked up this impression whilst he was protecting the tens of millions of Muslims who - as a population - are the largest group victim to terrorism in the world.

Reise
September 19th, 2016, 02:35 AM
THIS ISSUE IS EVEN MORE PRONOUNCED IN MY THINKING AT THIS TIME SINCE THE MARINE WHOSE DAUGHTER (IN LA PLATA , MD SCHOOL ) REC'D A FAILING GRADE IN HISTORY BECAUSE SHE REFUSED TO TAKE THE ISLAM STUDY COURSE ....INCIDENTALLY NO ALTERNATIVE COURSE WAS OFFERED. HER MARINE FATHER BROUGHT THIS TO THE FOREFRONT ...SINCE HE FOUGHT IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN , AND IS VERY AWARE OF HOW DANGEROUS THIS RELIGION IS...DEFINITELY NOT ONE OF PEACE.
I was in a Catholic middle school. Religious class was obligatory, and was counting as a grade.
Perhaps La Plata is in Argentina, which is not initially Muslim, but of us were forced to take classes we didn't want, no?
I didn't go there because it was a 'Catholic' school btw.

And when talking about it, Christians throughout History slaughtered other people and even, especially in my country, slaughtered each other.

Am I supposed to see Christianity as a religion of hate or whatever you see Islam as?

jamie_n5
September 19th, 2016, 07:28 PM
Well I sure would like to think differently. I am not a prejudice person so don't get me wrong. I always look for the good in all people. I just keep reading more things and get emails and information like the one I added to my post. I am more angered about the way president Obama acts than anything else. If they are going to allow teaching the Quran and the Muslim faith in our schools then they darn well should let any other religion be taught too. That is more my point. I know not all Muslim people are violent. In fact I am sure the majority are not. I just don't understand if the Muslim faith truly teaches that if you don't convert you should be killed. I hope that is untrue.
I also know about the holy wars of years ago. It is a part of history. I believe also that there will be religious and political unrest in the middle East until there is no earth any more.

Drewboyy
September 19th, 2016, 07:56 PM
My friend works a block away from that slow cooker-shrapnel bomb (made by an Afghansitnian) attack in New York. How bout instead of calling it for islamiphobia we call it being wary.

You know those string of attacks this weekend? I'm pretty sure they were all performed by Muslims. And the [liberal] media doesn't want to say that in fear of hurting other [liberal] people's feelings and loosing views/money.

Do you consider being afraid of the KKK "whitophobia"?

Zenos
September 19th, 2016, 11:22 PM
Yes I do think that this is a thing. For example s few days a go in germany there was a fight 80 germans attecked 20 refuges, and there has been 700 attacks reported in germany. And also I do think that there has been many attacks in other coutries too. In my opinion many people think that all Muslims are terorists and they have been thought from little age to be a terorist. Personaly I don't look at them as terorists. Those are my thoughts.

Well if they don't want them in their country it's their right to say get out

here's more on the incident

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/09/15/far-right-group-asylum-seekers-fight-in-german-town.html

seems like Officers were assailed with wooden sticks and bottles thrown by some of the asylum seekers as they tried trying to separate the groups as they brawled in a town square, police said.

Vlerchan
September 20th, 2016, 01:07 AM
I am more angered about the way president Obama acts than anything else.
Oh - I also should have added in the last post I made - Obama didn't legislate for the educational reform that the viral email you received claims he did.

---

The rest of what I said earlier isn't an opinion. It's the actual case.

Do you consider being afraid of the KKK "whitophobia"?
I am not afraid of all white people because of the KKK - is the difference.

Kawaii Bean
September 20th, 2016, 08:15 AM
I'm a Muslim and I can tell you that it is very real.

I ain't gonna lie, it hurts, too.

Mars
September 20th, 2016, 09:25 AM
I'm a Muslim and I can tell you that it is very real.

I ain't gonna lie, it hurts, too.

What do you mean it hurts? Are you telling me Muslims are people? Are you trying to say that they have feelings even though all of them blow themselves up and are taught to be killers? This is offending me as an American, because Americans have feelings, but obviously Muslims don't. Don't lie to us. How can Muslims have feelings if they aren't people? Are you trying to say that you're human? Madness !!!

---

That being said in heavy sarcasm and mockery. Don't discriminate. It isn't nice.

PlasmaHam
September 20th, 2016, 10:49 AM
I am not afraid of all white people because of the KKK - is the difference.
Would you be afraid of members of the KKK, regardless of whether they follow the command by their leaders to kill or not? The real difference, is that Islam is not a race, but a grouping of people that follow an ideology that can lead to violence, the only difference from the KKK is that they promote it as a religion. Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them. The earlier question regarding the KKK bringing on white phobia was not appropriate, we are talking about an ideology, not a race. The question would be better worded as," would you consider being afraid of the KKK as bringing upon KKK-member-phobia?" That to me seems much more appropriate for this discussion.

I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion, these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam." And I am in really no mood to deal with fallacies right now. I just wanted to clarify an earlier question to make it more relevant to the discussion.

Mars
September 20th, 2016, 11:38 AM
Would you be afraid of members of the KKK, regardless of whether they follow the command by their leaders to kill or not? The real difference, is that Islam is not a race, but a grouping of people that follow an ideology that can lead to violence, the only difference from the KKK is that they promote it as a religion. Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them. The earlier question regarding the KKK bringing on white phobia was not appropriate, we are talking about an ideology, not a race. The question would be better worded as," would you consider being afraid of the KKK as bringing upon KKK-member-phobia?" That to me seems much more appropriate for this discussion.

I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion, these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam." And I am in really no mood to deal with fallacies right now. I just wanted to clarify an earlier question to make it more relevant to the discussion.

The difference between Muslims and the KKK is that one is a religion and one is a hate group, so idk if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you?

Also, "well Christians..." Commit hate crimes, attacks, etc. As well. Maybe even more so than Muslims. This isn't a justification for so called "Muslim" terrorists doing what they do, but it is saying be open minded and don't judge the many based on the few.

Yeah I believe it is a true thing. With all the problems in the middle East and terrorist attacks on the USA on September 11, 2001 and the bombs and terrorist attacks on France and England and other places. Yes I believe it is very much alive and on peoples minds. Also when you consider that all Muslims are taught that if they can't convert other religions to Muslim then those people should be killed. So much for me believing that Muslims are a peaceful people.
I will add this to my post. I got this email yesterday.



I AM ONE OF YOUR 3 and please note the part I highlighted below. You hear of it every day on the news.



THIS ISSUE IS EVEN MORE PRONOUNCED IN MY THINKING AT THIS TIME SINCE THE MARINE WHOSE DAUGHTER (IN LA PLATA , MD SCHOOL ) REC'D A FAILING GRADE IN HISTORY BECAUSE SHE REFUSED TO TAKE THE ISLAM STUDY COURSE ....INCIDENTALLY NO ALTERNATIVE COURSE WAS OFFERED. HER MARINE FATHER BROUGHT THIS TO THE FOREFRONT ...SINCE HE FOUGHT IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN , AND IS VERY AWARE OF HOW DANGEROUS THIS RELIGION IS...DEFINITELY NOT ONE OF PEACE.



When we get 100,000,000, that's one hundred million willing Christians to BOND together, voice their concerns and vote, we can take back America with God's help. Become one of the One hundred million... Then let's get 200 million. It can be done just by sending this email to your friends. Do the math. It only takes a single willing heart and a fed up SOUL. God Bless America and Shine your light on Her!

Now President Obama is encouraging schools to teach the Quran for extra credit, while at the same time, they cannot even talk about the Bible, God, pray, or salute the American Flag.

The direction this country is headed should strike fear in the heart of every Christian, especially knowing that the Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be converted, they should be annihilated.

Send this to three people, or even one hundred ! And, send it the person who Sent it to you!..To let them know that indeed, it was sent out to many more.

>not recognising copy pasta
>not watching the news
>not doing research
>believing spam email you get
>trying to use it as a legitimate source in a debate

Leave.

They aren't brainwashed. They aren't taught to commit violence. They are taught a religion, just as Christians and Buddhists and Hindus. That isn't to say that some do not grow up to commit crimes and happen to be Muslim. But if anyone wants to say that Muslims are taught violence and are brainwashed, you're ignorant and should immediately stop.

Again tho, no one should hate or discriminate or judge anyone or any group of people. It's wrong.

Paraxiom
September 20th, 2016, 11:47 AM
The earlier question regarding the KKK bringing on white phobia was not appropriate, we are talking about an ideology, not a race.

I greatly doubt that the majority of Muslims are religiously devoted to a degree of all of them sharing very closely similar or identical socio-political views on what the world should be like, from / because of their reading of the Quran. There would be no conflict within the Islamic world that has relevance to their religion at all, if that were the case.

It's hardly one basic ideology such that all/most Muslims would be able to write it out on paper with minor differences between each person, if you asked them to. It's more complex than that.

Are there great similarities in the worldviews of Muslims? Sure.

Are there effectively equal views between millions of Muslims, such that it's justified to heap it all in a label of one unified force of one ideology? No. The Muslim population as a whole is not an intellectual/religious army.



I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion, these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam." And I am in really no mood to deal with fallacies right now. I just wanted to clarify an earlier question to make it more relevant to the discussion.

By all means judge Islam, but be consistent with this judgement where relevant elsewhere, at the least.


[...] Islam is not a race, but a grouping of people that follow an ideology that can lead to violence, the only difference from the KKK is that they promote it as a religion. Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them.

"Suspiciously large"? That in itself is hardly enough at all to justify to you seeing Islam to be "a grouping of people that follow an ideology that can lead to violence", though I also guess you mean "can and does lead to violence". Nevertheless, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Scientology are equally valid religions for your label of them being ideologies than can lead to violence. Good thing that you already considered the KKK along with this though.

Allow me to attempt at illustrating at your generalisation of framing the population of Muslims with terror attacks perpetrated by extremist Muslims/'Muslims'. It's more on the migrant/refugee crisis than terrorism, but the analogies can be made.

I took the below text from my first post in the Syrian asylum seeker blows himself up in Germany thread from the VTDC subforum, nearly 2 months ago [ http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2029740 ]:

________________________________


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Imagine that each line from the block above represents a person, from the middle east, who presented themselves as a refugee into Europe in 2015. Imagine one thousand of these blocks, and now you making a rough but good estimate of how many there were.

Now let's represent a rough number of terrorists who carried out attacks seen as terrorism in Europe in 2015. From data in Wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union ], I'm seeing 7, but since some are claimed by organisations, let's make an unjustifiably high overestimate of 100:

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Even if 1% of those flowing into Europe presenting themselves as refugees were actually there for ill-intent, you are mad to frame this with the other 99% of refugees. This generalisation's madness is magnified more than 100 times to get to this situation.


I can continue, but I will leave you with more statistics for your reading. I would appreciate the favour of you having a good look at them.

http://economicsandpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Global-Terrorism-Index-2015.pdf

http://www.datagraver.com/case/europol-reports-terrorism-in-the-eu-2006-2015

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

Flapjack
September 20th, 2016, 11:48 AM
MUSLIMS ARE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST VICTIM OF TERRORISM

Would you be afraid of members of the KKK, regardless of whether they follow the command by their leaders to kill or not?
Well if they decide not to kill and are just saying racist stuff and not hurting anyone then whoop whoop that is freedom of speech. They should be countered with education.
The real difference, is that Islam is not a race,
I love how racists are like nooo I'm not racist... Islam is not a race xD

Yeahhhh discrimination is always bad, that includes homophobia and islamophobia.

Better than the 'I have a black friend' xD Probably not many say that because if they met a Muslim their few brain cells would kick in and realise they're normal happy people, assuming that Muslim is a normal happy person xD

Basically stereotypes are bad , especially one's that cause people to be treated worse.

If I called you a fat slob because you was American would you like it?

I don't know how I can simplify this for you... I am a white guy, if I stole a cookie, would that make all white guy cookie thieves?

ISIS are the people trying to blow people up... not the 1.6 million Muslims (thankfully). Just because they identify as Muslim, does not mean they represent all Muslims, same with the KKK.

Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them.
Think of Muslims like Christians and the KKK like ISIS.
Do you understand? One is an extremist group claiming to be doing stuff for their religion.

I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion
Same as the climate change thread and all the other threads you got ripped apart on.

You know there is nothing wrong with saying, I was wrong...
I have personally done it when I have been proved wrong and I have seen every other of the most active users in ROTW say it.


these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam."
Then you misunderstood why we explained all that stuff to you, we are not saying you are linked to the Christians that committed terrorist acts or raped kids, we were saying that in every large religion you get bad apples, judging the whole religion because of them bad apples is stupid. Introducing policies against them all because of that misinformed and misdirected hate is harmful.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3764026/images/o-OMAR-ALNATOUR-facebook.jpg

Hyper
September 21st, 2016, 08:34 PM
Refusing to look at a religions doctrine by citing ''every religion has bad apples'' is also stupid.

But that is me pointing out the obvious. Seems we can't have common sense in society anymore, it is either outright islamophobia or outright SJW level insanity. And the middle ground is lost somewhere, though I recall seeing the sensible arguments as to why islamic extremism (or whatever you want to call it) is spreading so fast, coming from muslims.

As I see it, islamophobia is real but it is real due to real concerns and events. Sadly negative expectations against any group of people, always end up bringing about self-fulfilling prophecies - read; make shit worse yo.

mattsmith48
September 21st, 2016, 10:55 PM
People who are trying to justify Islamophobia for whatever reason are no better than people trying to justify what Hitler and the nazis did to the Jews.


PlasmaHam other religions did crazy shit in the past is a fair argument the only difference is back then they didnt had planes to fly them into buildings and no Internet to share the terrible things were doing. And because of the influence of the Vatican in Europe no one couldnt really speak up about it because they would have been jailed or killed. And stop with, the Quran is full of crazy shit and encourages violence and thats what Muslims believe and do, thats just bullshit. Yes there is some crazy shit in the Quran but so is almost any other religious books in most of the old testement when God is not murdering people for stupid reasons or no reason at all he ask you to kill people for stupid reasons or no reason at all.

PlasmaHam
September 21st, 2016, 11:19 PM
People who are trying to justify Islamophobia for whatever reason are no better than people trying to justify what Hitler and the nazis did to the Jews.
http://www.pmslweb.com/the-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/3-everyone-I-don-t-like-is-hitler-funny-golden-book.png
(This will never get old with you, I can't wait to hear the ranting reply about how Trump is going to nuke the Earth or that Christians are worse than the Soviets.)

Maybe you should stop trying to justify getting rid of free speech and guns before you start comparing others to Hitler. In fact, you are the only one here advocating for legal discrimination based on religion. How about that for Hitler comparisons?

mattsmith48
September 22nd, 2016, 12:17 AM
As numerous people have already stated, simply stating that a religion is innocent of all wrongs because some other religion did something similar hundreds of years ago is not good justification. The Middle East still has a slave trade, are we simply to ignore that because we use to have a slave trade? Because that honestly sounds like what you are arguing for.

I never said that Islam was innocent what I said if your gonna make one religion responsible for what a few crazy followers of that religion did and are doing all other religions should also be responsible for what their crazy followers did and are doing.

Where did I say we should ignore terrorism because we did it too?

We are talking about Islamophobia, and unless you can give me good reasons to not be afraid of a religion that promotes rape, religious warfare, and forced conversions,


Other religions promotes shit like that too should we be afraid of them too?
Do you fear Jews? What about Christians?

I see no reason why my fears would be unjustified. By the way, ever look into history books and you will see that the Muslims have been engaging in barbaric acts for centuries, Thomas Jefferson even said that Muslims justify killing by their religion, and that was long before airplanes and the internet came along. Meanwhile, the only real negatives of Christianity came under the rule of the Catholics, and even they will admit that they are not Biblically sourced, so you can't really say that the Catholics doing something automatically makes that a Christian issue. That's like saying all blacks are at fault because a group of mentally unstable blacks just killed a man.

If a Christian goes out and kill gay people because thats what is in the bible, does it mean all Christians agree with what this one guy did or they would have done or will do the same thing? Should this justify Christianophobia? Thats what the bible says to do.

that Christians are worse than the Soviets.

I said that? Cool! Just remind me when did I say that I don't seem to remember.

Maybe you should stop trying to justify getting rid of free speech and guns before you start comparing others to Hitler. In fact, you are the only one here advocating for legal discrimination based on religion. How about that for Hitler comparisons?

Being for secularism and gun control thats exactly like Hitler but fear mongering about an entire religion and wanting to ban them is not.

Flapjack
September 22nd, 2016, 03:03 PM
image (http://www.pmslweb.com/the-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/3-everyone-I-don-t-like-is-hitler-funny-golden-book.png)
(This will never get old with you, I can't wait to hear the ranting reply about how Trump is going to nuke the Earth or that Christians are worse than the Soviets.)

Maybe you should stop trying to justify getting rid of free speech and guns before you start comparing others to Hitler. In fact, you are the only one here advocating for legal discrimination based on religion. How about that for Hitler comparisons?
How does that have anything to do with the topic of 'Islamophobia'? If you can't handle the debate, then don't debate but if you want to debate then tell matt why you think he is wrong, why you think that and maybe shock us all and provide some stats.

Personal attacks just make it obvious you know you can't counter the content of his argument.

Also again you conveniently missed my post:( dw I will post again!!
________________________________________________________________
MUSLIMS ARE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST VICTIM OF TERRORISM

Would you be afraid of members of the KKK, regardless of whether they follow the command by their leaders to kill or not?
Well if they decide not to kill and are just saying racist stuff and not hurting anyone then whoop whoop that is freedom of speech. They should be countered with education.
The real difference, is that Islam is not a race,
I love how racists are like nooo I'm not racist... Islam is not a race xD

Yeahhhh discrimination is always bad, that includes homophobia and islamophobia.

Better than the 'I have a black friend' xD Probably not many say that because if they met a Muslim their few brain cells would kick in and realise they're normal happy people, assuming that Muslim is a normal happy person xD

Basically stereotypes are bad , especially one's that cause people to be treated worse.

If I called you a fat slob because you was American would you like it?

I don't know how I can simplify this for you... I am a white guy, if I stole a cookie, would that make all white guy cookie thieves?

ISIS are the people trying to blow people up... not the 1.6 million Muslims (thankfully). Just because they identify as Muslim, does not mean they represent all Muslims, same with the KKK.

Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them.
Think of Muslims like Christians and the KKK like ISIS.
Do you understand? One is an extremist group claiming to be doing stuff for their religion.

I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion
Same as the climate change thread and all the other threads you got ripped apart on.

You know there is nothing wrong with saying, I was wrong...
I have personally done it when I have been proved wrong and I have seen every other of the most active users in ROTW say it.


these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam."
Then you misunderstood why we explained all that stuff to you, we are not saying you are linked to the Christians that committed terrorist acts or raped kids, we were saying that in every large religion you get bad apples, judging the whole religion because of them bad apples is stupid. Introducing policies against them all because of that misinformed and misdirected hate is harmful.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3764026/images/o-OMAR-ALNATOUR-facebook.jpg

Porpoise101
September 22nd, 2016, 07:01 PM
I don't understand why we blame radicals on Islam. It is not because of Islam that these people radicalize. Historically, people radicalize when the current system isn't working for them. Look at Weimar Germany (during the Great Depression), the South post-Reconstruction, Tsarist Russia (before/during WW1). Over and over, we see radicalism popping up not from religion or pure ideology, but from discontent at the current system. Our terrorist issue stems not from pure religious zeal, but instead discontent at the corrupt political systems of places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. You can see radicalism in action in the West Bank and Gaza where Palestinians have turned to Islamic Fundamentalism to attempt to solve their problems when simply living under the Israeli rule has not worked out.

In the US, our radicals come from areas in distress. This includes the rural areas (where white nationalism is on the rise) and impoverished areas (gangs, crime, etc). They often do not come from Muslim communities because the communities in the US are often middle class or higher. Muslim communities in the US are essentially the same as your suburban-Protestant one (with minor differences in culture, attitude, etc). The only difference is that they are probably more devout and active in their religion.

Paraxiom
September 23rd, 2016, 05:37 PM
But that is me pointing out the obvious. Seems we can't have common sense in society anymore, it is either outright islamophobia or outright SJW level insanity. And the middle ground is lost somewhere, though I recall seeing the sensible arguments as to why islamic extremism (or whatever you want to call it) is spreading so fast, coming from muslims.

Too much swinging all over the place, yes.


Flapjack Good image of four stereotypical shooter categories.

ThisBougieLife
September 24th, 2016, 10:45 AM
I don't understand why we blame radicals on Islam. It is not because of Islam that these people radicalize. Historically, people radicalize when the current system isn't working for them. Look at Weimar Germany (during the Great Depression), the South post-Reconstruction, Tsarist Russia (before/during WW1). Over and over, we see radicalism popping up not from religion or pure ideology, but from discontent at the current system. Our terrorist issue stems not from pure religious zeal, but instead discontent at the corrupt political systems of places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. You can see radicalism in action in the West Bank and Gaza where Palestinians have turned to Islamic Fundamentalism to attempt to solve their problems when simply living under the Israeli rule has not worked out.

In the US, our radicals come from areas in distress. This includes the rural areas (where white nationalism is on the rise) and impoverished areas (gangs, crime, etc). They often do not come from Muslim communities because the communities in the US are often middle class or higher. Muslim communities in the US are essentially the same as your suburban-Protestant one (with minor differences in culture, attitude, etc). The only difference is that they are probably more devout and active in their religion.

Exactly. Religion bolsters radicalism, there's no doubt. But it's not Islam alone that is motivating this radicalism. If these Middle Eastern nations were peaceful and prosperous and had little Western intervention, we wouldn't be seeing this radicalism at this rate (and indeed, look at Muslim countries like Oman, that are virtually left alone, and see the lack of radicalism stemming from there).

PlasmaHam
September 24th, 2016, 04:49 PM
Exactly. Religion bolsters radicalism, there's no doubt. But it's not Islam alone that is motivating this radicalism. If these Middle Eastern nations were peaceful and prosperous and had little Western intervention, we wouldn't be seeing this radicalism at this rate (and indeed, look at Muslim countries like Oman, that are virtually left alone, and see the lack of radicalism stemming from there).
You could say the the West bought upon modern terrorism, with supplying and training Afgans and other Muslim groups to fight against the Russians during the '80s. That was where Bin Laden got his roots after all. It is funny though, that you blame the governments of the Middle East for causing a rise in radicalism, when most of them are based of Sharia Law, the same thing Muslims are supposed to follow.

Also, Islamic terrorist is far from a modern day thing. Just look up the Barbary pirates, and the Barbary Wars. Numerous states within the Ottoman Empire(which was strong enough to deter any European or American intervention) authorized privateering of any ships within the Mediterranean. After then Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson asked the ambassador from those states why they attacked foreign ships, this is what he said.(Islam)Was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Qur’an, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Let me think, Muslims being supported by Muslim governments to attack non-Muslims. Muslims using the Qu'ran to justify killing non-Muslims. Muslims believing that they should inherit the Earth. Nations of Europe and America being attacked, but instead of responding in just force, they give the Muslim countries money. Yep, that seems very similar to modern events, despite the fact that Europe has really stayed out of the Middle East for centuries beforehand. The Babary states were left alone, yet there was a ton of radicalization there. I have noticed from your previous posts that you have a very negative stance on foreign intervention, but that isn't the source of all problems.

Vlerchan
September 24th, 2016, 05:20 PM
and indeed, look at Muslim countries like Oman, that are virtually left alone, and see the lack of radicalism stemming from there
Oman also has institutions that are significantly more inclusive than its neighbours that fell to civil war and Jihad - and its arid landscape can't host insurgencies like neighbour Yemen's does, for example. It helps that their monarch seems very competent.

Not that I disagree with your central point but the likelihood is that the likes of Iraq and Syrian were doomed regardless, and Oman happens to sit in a specific position where it is relatively safe from Middle Eastern politicking.

It is funny though, that you blame the governments of the Middle East for causing a rise in radicalism, when most of them are based of Sharia Law, the same thing Muslims are supposed to follow.
Syria and Iraq both had secular Ba'athist governments - Iraq was later a secular democracy.

Of course, Islamists tend to disagree with how Sharia has been interpreted in the likes of the Gulf Monarchies. Having spoken to actual Islamists, they tend to see divergence from the principals of a pursuing a global caliphate as unIslamic.

The Babary states were left alone, yet there was a ton of radicalization there.
That doesn't mean that, ceteris paribus, intervention encourages radicalisation.

Your brother being killed in an American bombing raid probably doesn't inspire a whole lot of pro-American feeling.

Kahn
September 24th, 2016, 05:49 PM
I haven't read through the thread but I'd like to pose a question.

What is the issue with stopping all immigration from countries known to be harboring terrorist cells/organizations until proper vetting is put in place? The head of the Department of Homeland Security has said that the migration process isn't perfect and there is a chance for militant extremists to be let in under the pretense that they are refugees. Why should we even take the chance until we put measures in place to prevent such a thing from occuring?

I personally don't care if a person is Muslim, or practices Islam- what I care about is whether or not they are non-violent (i.e. they won't attempt to kill innocent Americans (http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/19/us/new-york-explosion-investigation/index.html)) and non-extremist (i.e. they won'the attempt to enforce sharia law upon non-Muslim Americans), and that they are individuals who want to assimilate and cultivate a better life in America.

Vlerchan
September 24th, 2016, 06:35 PM
What is the issue with stopping all immigration from countries known to be harboring terrorist cells/organizations until proper vetting is put in place?
Because that suggestions is massively vague, and before we cause considerable disruption to global immigration traffic I'd appreciate a more significant outline - Trump has claimed 'countries known to be harboring terrorist cells/organizations' includes France and Germany: it would also have to include Ireland to make sense at all, and Britain, and Spain, and India, and China, and...

There's the other argument that the diplomatic loss would be considerable - in particular amongst our most important allies in the struggle against Islamic Jihad.

But I put more of a focus on the fact that the argument doesn't offer a specific, concrete proposal in itself other than to do something.

The head of the Department of Homeland Security has said that the migration process isn't perfect and there is a chance for militant extremists to be let in under the pretense that they are refugees.
Without a direct quotation I can't be sure if he means that is intended to mean there is no perfect process for vetting refugees - because I would agree there. But the vetting process at the moment is quite thorough, though.

Three quarters were chosen by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees - which selects the most vulnerable: Four-fifths of all refugees arriving into the United States this year are women and children. The vetting process at the moment is then months long: it includes face-to-face interviews with Department of Homeland Security officials, medical exams, screens through intelligence databases, and case referrals back in Washington.

There's much easier means to sneak ISIL operatives into the state, frankly.

StoppingTom
September 24th, 2016, 07:52 PM
I haven't read through the thread but I'd like to pose a question.

What is the issue with stopping all immigration from countries known to be harboring terrorist cells/organizations until proper vetting is put in place? The head of the Department of Homeland Security has said that the migration process isn't perfect and there is a chance for militant extremists to be let in under the pretense that they are refugees. Why should we even take the chance until we put measures in place to prevent such a thing from occuring?

I personally don't care if a person is Muslim, or practices Islam- what I care about is whether or not they are non-violent (i.e. they won't attempt to kill innocent Americans (http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/19/us/new-york-explosion-investigation/index.html)) and non-extremist (i.e. they won'the attempt to enforce sharia law upon non-Muslim Americans), and that they are individuals who want to assimilate and cultivate a better life in America.

You've got the right idea, but there are terrorist cells just about everywhere. If we stopped allowing immigration from any country that has terrorist cells operating in them, you'd be banning, for example, Ireland, who had (and may still have, Vlerchan knows better than I) the IRA, etc.

ethan-s
September 25th, 2016, 11:52 AM
Yeah, it's a thing, and for good reason. Muslims kill, and we need to make sure that any Muslim you are likely to come into contact with will not shoot up a mall. It's common sense. If something is trying to kill you, eliminate it.

That said, if a Muslim is a peaceful Muslim, and wants to follow our laws, follow our societal norms and be a real American, awesome! Do it! But if you wanna come here and freeload and try to islamize our country, screw you. Stay in your own hole in the ground.

Porpoise101
September 25th, 2016, 12:54 PM
That said, if a Muslim is a peaceful Muslim, and wants to follow our laws, follow our societal norms and be a real American, awesome! Do it! But if you wanna come here and freeload and try to islamize our country, screw you. Stay in your own hole in the ground.
Should these peaceful people be persecuted then?

Paraxiom
September 25th, 2016, 05:39 PM
Yeah, it's a thing, and for good reason. Muslims kill, and we need to make sure that any Muslim you are likely to come into contact with will not shoot up a mall. It's common sense. If something is trying to kill you, eliminate it.

The exact same thing is happening with Christians though, by raw statistics at the least.

*insert recent mass shooting news here*

It's odd though that there's no 'phobia' toward most mass shooters.


That said, if a Muslim is a peaceful Muslim, and wants to follow our laws, follow our societal norms and be a real American, awesome! Do it! But if you wanna come here and freeload and try to islamize our country, screw you. Stay in your own hole in the ground.

If a Muslim is a peaceful Muslim (the majority of cases here), then they'd be doing better than a significant proportion of the US population already.

*insert guns here also*

Flapjack
September 26th, 2016, 01:34 PM
Yeah, it's a thing, and for good reason. Muslims kill, and we need to make sure that any Muslim you are likely to come into contact with will not shoot up a mall. It's common sense. If something is trying to kill you, eliminate it.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3764026/images/o-OMAR-ALNATOUR-facebook.jpg

That said, if a Muslim is a peaceful Muslim, and wants to follow our laws, follow our societal norms and be a real American, awesome! Do it! But if you wanna come here and freeload and try to islamize our country, screw you. Stay in your own hole in the ground.
Sooo the vast majority of them are good then?
Stay in your own hole in the ground.
Obviously this is a racist statement but I am sure you knew that so don't know why I bother pointing it out.

In case you are that ignorant, there are American Muslims, British Muslims, French Muslims and Muslims from every country. Also It is obviously wrong to describe Africa as a 'hole in the ground' as many parts of Africa are beautiful and well developed.
PlasmaHam another one of my posts you obviously must have accidentally missed.
image (http://www.pmslweb.com/the-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/3-everyone-I-don-t-like-is-hitler-funny-golden-book.png)
(This will never get old with you, I can't wait to hear the ranting reply about how Trump is going to nuke the Earth or that Christians are worse than the Soviets.)

Maybe you should stop trying to justify getting rid of free speech and guns before you start comparing others to Hitler. In fact, you are the only one here advocating for legal discrimination based on religion. How about that for Hitler comparisons?
How does that have anything to do with the topic of 'Islamophobia'? If you can't handle the debate, then don't debate but if you want to debate then tell matt why you think he is wrong, why you think that and maybe shock us all and provide some stats.

Personal attacks just make it obvious you know you can't counter the content of his argument.

Also again you conveniently missed my post:( dw I will post again!!
________________________________________________________________
MUSLIMS ARE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST VICTIM OF TERRORISM

Would you be afraid of members of the KKK, regardless of whether they follow the command by their leaders to kill or not?
Well if they decide not to kill and are just saying racist stuff and not hurting anyone then whoop whoop that is freedom of speech. They should be countered with education.
The real difference, is that Islam is not a race,
I love how racists are like nooo I'm not racist... Islam is not a race xD

Yeahhhh discrimination is always bad, that includes homophobia and islamophobia.

Better than the 'I have a black friend' xD Probably not many say that because if they met a Muslim their few brain cells would kick in and realise they're normal happy people, assuming that Muslim is a normal happy person xD

Basically stereotypes are bad , especially one's that cause people to be treated worse.

If I called you a fat slob because you was American would you like it?

I don't know how I can simplify this for you... I am a white guy, if I stole a cookie, would that make all white guy cookie thieves?

ISIS are the people trying to blow people up... not the 1.6 million Muslims (thankfully). Just because they identify as Muslim, does not mean they represent all Muslims, same with the KKK.

Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them.
Think of Muslims like Christians and the KKK like ISIS.
Do you understand? One is an extremist group claiming to be doing stuff for their religion.

I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion
Same as the climate change thread and all the other threads you got ripped apart on.

You know there is nothing wrong with saying, I was wrong...
I have personally done it when I have been proved wrong and I have seen every other of the most active users in ROTW say it.


these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam."
Then you misunderstood why we explained all that stuff to you, we are not saying you are linked to the Christians that committed terrorist acts or raped kids, we were saying that in every large religion you get bad apples, judging the whole religion because of them bad apples is stupid. Introducing policies against them all because of that misinformed and misdirected hate is harmful.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3764026/images/o-OMAR-ALNATOUR-facebook.jpg

PlasmaHam
September 26th, 2016, 04:43 PM
I always find the subject of discrimination as interpreted by liberals fascinating. Requiring that everyone regardless of race, age, or ethnicity have a free public ID to vote, that is racist. Charities that exist only to support minorities, not racist. Requiring that everyone, transexual or not, use the restroom of their biological sex, that is discrimination. Building specific bathrooms just for transsexuals, not discrimination. France restricts pro-Islam freedom of expression, discriminatory. UK restricts anti-Islam freedom of expression, not discriminatory. Making abortion illegal, discrimination. Forcing taxpayers and business owners to pay for birth control used only by women, not discrimination. Do you see my point? I will never be convinced that you support equality when you support policies like above. I know these aren't all on-topic for this debate, but it does go to show how hypocritical these,"equalists" are.

Mars
September 26th, 2016, 05:18 PM
Keep this thread on topic and don't bash or bait other users.

Flapjack
September 27th, 2016, 01:21 AM
I always find the subject of discrimination as interpreted by liberals fascinating. Requiring that everyone regardless of race, age, or ethnicity have a free public ID to vote, that is racist. Charities that exist only to support minorities, not racist. Requiring that everyone, transexual or not, use the restroom of their biological sex, that is discrimination. Building specific bathrooms just for transsexuals, not discrimination. France restricts pro-Islam freedom of expression, discriminatory. UK restricts anti-Islam freedom of expression, not discriminatory. Making abortion illegal, discrimination. Forcing taxpayers and business owners to pay for birth control used only by women, not discrimination. Do you see my point? I will never be convinced that you support equality when you support policies like above.

I see you are very confused... don't worry I made a post you keep ignoring xD

In case you are that ignorant, there are American Muslims, British Muslims, French Muslims and Muslims from every country. Also It is obviously wrong to describe Africa as a 'hole in the ground' as many parts of Africa are beautiful and well developed.
@PlasmaHam (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/member.php?u=122733) another one of my posts you obviously must have accidentally missed.
image (http://www.pmslweb.com/the-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/3-everyone-I-don-t-like-is-hitler-funny-golden-book.png)
(This will never get old with you, I can't wait to hear the ranting reply about how Trump is going to nuke the Earth or that Christians are worse than the Soviets.)

Maybe you should stop trying to justify getting rid of free speech and guns before you start comparing others to Hitler. In fact, you are the only one here advocating for legal discrimination based on religion. How about that for Hitler comparisons?
How does that have anything to do with the topic of 'Islamophobia'? If you can't handle the debate, then don't debate but if you want to debate then tell matt why you think he is wrong, why you think that and maybe shock us all and provide some stats.

Personal attacks just make it obvious you know you can't counter the content of his argument.

Also again you conveniently missed my post:( dw I will post again!!
________________________________________________________________
MUSLIMS ARE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST VICTIM OF TERRORISM

Would you be afraid of members of the KKK, regardless of whether they follow the command by their leaders to kill or not?
Well if they decide not to kill and are just saying racist stuff and not hurting anyone then whoop whoop that is freedom of speech. They should be countered with education.
The real difference, is that Islam is not a race,
I love how racists are like nooo I'm not racist... Islam is not a race xD

Yeahhhh discrimination is always bad, that includes homophobia and islamophobia.

Better than the 'I have a black friend' xD Probably not many say that because if they met a Muslim their few brain cells would kick in and realise they're normal happy people, assuming that Muslim is a normal happy person xD

Basically stereotypes are bad , especially one's that cause people to be treated worse.

If I called you a fat slob because you was American would you like it?

I don't know how I can simplify this for you... I am a white guy, if I stole a cookie, would that make all white guy cookie thieves?

ISIS are the people trying to blow people up... not the 1.6 million Muslims (thankfully). Just because they identify as Muslim, does not mean they represent all Muslims, same with the KKK.

Both tout themselves as being peaceful, yet there is a suspicously large number of violent individuals coming out of them.
Think of Muslims like Christians and the KKK like ISIS.
Do you understand? One is an extremist group claiming to be doing stuff for their religion.

I'm not intending to get anymore into this discussion
Same as the climate change thread and all the other threads you got ripped apart on.

You know there is nothing wrong with saying, I was wrong...
I have personally done it when I have been proved wrong and I have seen every other of the most active users in ROTW say it.


these debates always end with,"Well, Christians did___ 1000 years ago, thus you are in no position to judge Islam."
Then you misunderstood why we explained all that stuff to you, we are not saying you are linked to the Christians that committed terrorist acts or raped kids, we were saying that in every large religion you get bad apples, judging the whole religion because of them bad apples is stupid. Introducing policies against them all because of that misinformed and misdirected hate is harmful.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3764026/images/o-OMAR-ALNATOUR-facebook.jpg

Kahn
September 27th, 2016, 07:16 AM
Without a direct quotation I can't be sure if he means that is intended to mean there is no perfect process for vetting refugees - because I would agree there. But the vetting process at the moment is quite thorough, though.

I'll try to find the quote by Jeh Johnson today. I heard it on a radio show in an interview or a press conference, and when I searched for it a while ago, I couldn't find anything.

Three quarters were chosen by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees - which selects the most vulnerable: Four-fifths of all refugees arriving into the United States this year are women and children. The vetting process at the moment is then months long: it includes face-to-face interviews with Department of Homeland Security officials, medical exams, screens through intelligence databases, and case referrals back in Washington.

I wasn't aware. How are ISIS insurgents still making it through the vetting process and why should we allow it to continue?

There's much easier means to sneak ISIL operatives into the state, frankly.

Elaborate.

Mars
September 27th, 2016, 07:55 AM
Mfw people try to justify discrimination
http://i.imgur.com/9rJQRfc.jpg

Vlerchan
September 27th, 2016, 09:11 AM
How are ISIS insurgents still making it through the vetting process and why should we allow it to continue?
There's no evidence that ISIL insurgents are making it through the vetting process for refugees.

The attackers thus far have all been either natural born citizens or individuals who were radicalised after arriving as immigrants some time ago.

Elaborate.
Enter Latin America and then sneak across the border.

Though much easier is the use of the Internet to radicalise those who are already resident.

Kahn
September 27th, 2016, 09:24 AM
There's no evidence that ISIL insurgents are making it through the vetting process for refugees.

The attackers thus far have all been either natural born citizens or individuals who were radicalised after arriving as immigrants some time ago.

I see.

Enter Latin America and then sneak across the border.

http://lolworthy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/trump-building-wall-gif.gif

Though much easier is the use of the Internet to radicalise those who are already resident.

That's how I figured they'd garner influence over here at first.

Paraxiom
September 30th, 2016, 04:39 PM
image (http://lolworthy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/trump-building-wall-gif.gif)


I'm fine if he literally does that! :D

Kahn
September 30th, 2016, 09:57 PM
I'm fine if he literally does that! :D

I and thousands of Americans will be right there with him, if that's the case! :D

Paraxiom
September 30th, 2016, 09:58 PM
I and thousands of Americans will be right there with him, if that's the case! :D

Aaaaa no just him by himself!

Vlerchan
October 1st, 2016, 11:16 AM
image (http://lolworthy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/trump-building-wall-gif.gif)
On this, I came across this interesting Tyler Cowen* post from about ten years ago.

If you shut off the desert walks (assume the fence is impregnable, ha!), more Mexicans will use illegal papers.

Did I add I would expect the cost of the papers to fall, not rise? Many Mexicans don’t trust the purchase of papers, as opposed to the desert walk. If the walk were impossible, networks for manufacture and sale of the papers would become much better developed. The illegal papers would become much cheaper and much more widely used.

In other words, more young women will come. Many of the Mexican men will have wives here, not back home. Many more young Mexicans will be born on U.S. soil.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2006/04/should_we_just_.html

I haven't researched the argument myself but it aligns with the main argument I have been making in the last twelve months. That there should be (1) much stricter enforcement made against firms, and (2) more visas opportunities so for Hispanic Americans that - if you so desire - don't lead to citizenship, because that's what actually works**.

I am also sure there is a much more cost efficient means of stopping Islamic terrorists from entering the state through Latin America. Especially since I figure that building the wall won't be too efficient. It's more than possible to catch a rerouted flight from some non-terrorist-infested hellhole (i.e. not the ME, France, Germany, Ireland, Spain, China, etc.) and if one is in anyway competent or organised, do so on fake papers picked up in the stop-off state.

---

* Professor in Economics, GMU.

** Edit., and (3) help create a more prosperous Mexico (which, if we are realpolitking here, can act as a buffer to other Latin American immigration). This certainly involves not tearing up NAFTA.

Porpoise101
October 1st, 2016, 06:01 PM
I feel I should add that the influx of Mexicans has drastically decreased the past few years. Last year I believe we actually had a net decrease of Mexican nationals in the US. Currently the biggest immigrant groups coming to the US are Central Americans, Caribbeans (is this a word???), and Chinese, with Indians not far behind. Cubans also have a weird situation in that they pretty much get a free pass into the US once they touch our soil because of retrograde Cold War laws.

The right's Illegal Immigrant rhetoric is losing actual relevancy and I fear that they could actually start going for the legal ones. Of course, the first legal immigrants to get the boot will be the refugees and ones from the ME.
------
Also big news for this country: The White House wants to make a new "middle east" race. (Source (https://www.rt.com/usa/361264-middle-eastern-ethnicity-census/))

I think it is a terrible idea. I feel sick to my stomach honestly because of this. This will make certain groups easier to target. In my area especially, it will turn many 'white' areas into 'not white' areas, creating instant minority areas. For example, Christian Lebanese people who have adopted the Anglo-American culture in the 1920s are now just going to be placed in a minority category for no reason. Same with Assyrians, Chaldeans, Copts, etc. It will also be inaccurate as a Turk, an Iranian, and an Arab don't even have the same ethnic background. To me, this change will only bring negative outcomes and only distance the Middle Eastern community. If anything, it shows how arbitrary and ridiculous the whole 'race' system is in the US.

Vlerchan
October 1st, 2016, 07:26 PM
I feel I should add that the influx of Mexicans has drastically decreased the past few years. Last year I believe we actually had a net decrease of Mexican nationals in the US.
This is correct.

If anything, it shows how arbitrary and ridiculous the whole 'race' system is in the US.
First thought that came into my mind is that I wonder how the Jews (/Israelis) are going to react when they get told that they're no longer white again.

Though since one decides their status for themselves I imagine a lot of groups are going to elect white - and the to-be introduced categorisation will be use to determine who the new immigrants are.

Porpoise101
October 1st, 2016, 09:09 PM
Though since one decides their status for themselves I imagine a lot of groups are going to elect white - and the to-be introduced categorisation will be use to determine who the new immigrants are.
The issue with this is that you then are not actually collecting the data of 'whos who'. You aren't counting the actual amount of Assyrians, Syrians, Jews, whatever. Instead, the government will only count the people who choose to identify as their "race". This will definitely skew towards those who are older for example, and will probably mess up a lot of the census data for this demographic. This will also make collecting data on groups who have come in waves more difficult. Take the Assyrian community as an example. Many came early on in the 1910s to flee the instability of the collapsed Ottoman Empire. Then in the 70s/80s some more came to flee Saddam Hussein. The ones who came earlier will be white while the ones who came more recently will not. All of this in spite of the fact that they live similarly (from my experience at least). This creates a host of problems because you can't actually get accurate data for 'wave communities' like this.

I'll add that the Muslims will probably self-select out of the white race, which is why I decided that this was relevant for this thread. It means that there will be a religious divide even if the ethnicity is the same.

Jinglebottom
October 2nd, 2016, 02:56 AM
I'm indifferent to the new category. I'd probably select it if I were living in the US (despite not being the stereotypical "brown Muslim" people expect all Middle-Easterners to be). I'm sure it's going to upset a lot of Phoenician wannabes though.

Porpoise101
October 3rd, 2016, 06:13 PM
What complaints do people have with Muslims in general anyways? Is it fanaticism? Oppression? Or just the fact they are usually foreigners?

Kahn
October 3rd, 2016, 11:07 PM
What complaints do people have with Muslims in general anyways? Is it fanaticism? Oppression? Or just the fact they are usually foreigners?

For me, it's the fact that the radical fundamentalist branch of Islam, that interprets the Quran literally (or in other words- Islamic Supremacists), are getting away with things like sex slavery involving children (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/20/the-islamic-states-horrifying-practice-of-sex-slavery-explained/), the genocide of Middle Eastern Christians (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Christians_by_ISIL), mass (and underreported) criminal activity in nations harboring Muslim refugees, sexual crimes especially, (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis) deliberate destruction of ancient cultural sites or artifacts, (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_ISIL) and other reasons I'm too lazy to name at the moment because it's super late.

No I don't hate all Muslims. I hate the Islamic Supremacists who are guilty of all the allegations above- the Muslims who desire to coerce the globe into converting to Islam and those who'd enforce Sharia Law upon non-Muslims.

Jinglebottom
October 4th, 2016, 11:24 AM
What complaints do people have with Muslims in general anyways? Is it fanaticism? Oppression? Or just the fact they are usually foreigners?
When Muslims decide they want to live among us in peace and let go of their plans to turn our country into the newest battleground for their Sunni-Shia holy wars (it might be far too late for that but we can still hope), I will welcome them with open arms. Until then, I won't have anything nice to say. If they're so determined to keep slaughtering each other while dragging the rest of us into a fresh new civil war, they have two countries to the east where they can do that, to their heart's content.

ThisBougieLife
October 4th, 2016, 12:23 PM
No I don't hate all Muslims. I hate the Islamic Supremacists who are guilty of all the allegations above- the Muslims who desire to coerce the globe into converting to Islam and those who'd enforce Sharia Law upon non-Muslims.

This is my issue as well. I have no particular prejudice against Islam or Muslims. But I am not going to deny that there is a lot of Islamic fanaticism and terrorism in the world. It would be dishonest to pretend that all religions are exactly the same. While it may be that any religion has the potential for extremism carried out in its name, only one is a significant threat around the world right now. This does not justify vilifying and alienating the majority of Muslims who are peaceful and want no part of the extremism. But it does justify recognizing and rooting out the extremists when necessary.

phuckphace
October 4th, 2016, 01:41 PM
No I don't hate all Muslims. I hate the Islamic Supremacists who are guilty of all the allegations above- the Muslims who desire to coerce the globe into converting to Islam and those who'd enforce Sharia Law upon non-Muslims.

the main issue with Islam is that its fundamentalist factions ("terrorists" and their sympathizers) are a much larger percentage of the total than say, Christianity.

that, and Islam's durka-durka "morality" is primitive, broken and barbaric - see female circumcision, stoning women to death for being rape victims, etc. let's not even get started on the high levels of bestiality and child rape that are endemic to literally every Muslim-majority country. there are videos on YouTube of Muslims being interviewed on this topic and one guy openly admits to gangbanging a boy with several other men on a bus, and another justifies the boy-fucking with "well, what am I supposed to fuck, my grandma?" can't make this shit up, but even if you do it's probably still true.

I now understand why Jews invented nukes.

Kahn
October 4th, 2016, 02:42 PM
Jamal Mansour, 63, who migrated from Jordan to the US and became a naturalized citizen, took a gun into his daughter's bedroom at around 1:15am Tuesday morning. He then shot 27-year-old Tahani Mansour twist in her forehead. She died nearly 10 hours later at the hospital.

...

"We don't have a solid motive other than an argument occurred between a father and his daughter," said Lt. George Lichman with Rocky River Police.

Family members claim that the reason he shot his daughter is due to a medical condition, diabetes.

However, Lichman said, "We had the fire department respond and do an evaluation, it turns out [the father] was not under any medical care at the time of the incident and since he's been in our jail."

...

"Mr. Mansour might have assimilated to Western culture sufficiently to shave his beard and wear jeans but not to accept his daughter behaving like western girls," said Attorney Daniel Akbari, author of "Honor Killing: A Professional's Guide to Sexual Relations and Ghayra Violence from the Islamic Sources."

Akbari once practiced law in Iran before its top Shariah Court. He converted to Christianity and now lives in Texas.

"Any Muslim who has lived in a society with a dominant Islamic culture adopts those laws to some degree and makes them to be a part of his or her belief," Akbari said in an interview with WND.

"Muslim men who immigrate to Western countries bring that sense of jealousy toward their female family members with them and enforce the sharia rules in their families," he added.

He then spoke about the actual Arabic term that is often spoken of as "honor."

"Islam has a term for that sense of jealousy, which by mistake has been translated as 'honor,' Akbari said. "The Islamic term for that jealousy is 'ghayra,' which literally means excluding others. Islamic rules for dress and conduct cover all aspects of a Muslim woman's life, how to dress, how to walk, how to talk, and so on."

"When a Muslim woman violates any of those rules commanded by Islam for her behavior she violates the Muslim man's ghayra causing him to feel he is responsible to take action and stop her," he added. "Islam provides a hierarchy of actions the man can take, starting with scolding the woman and ending with killing her."

....


tl;dr Ohio Muslim refugee murders his own daughter, for "unknown reasons" according to police, due to a violation of the man's "honor" according to former Sharia Law attorney Daniel Akbari. (http://freedomoutpost.com/did-this-ohio-muslim-immigrant-murder-his-own-daughter-in-an-islamic-honor-killing/)

Vlerchan can you remind me why we should alow hundreds of thousands of these people in our country?

I know, I know, it's such a knee-jerk reaction, but considering events such as San Bernadino (http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/10/us/san-bernardino-terrorist-after-action-report/index.html), the recent bombing in Manhattan (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/nyregion/new-york-explosion-chelsea.html), the recent bombing in New Jersey (http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2016/09/suspicious_package_found_at_elizabeth_train_statio.html), the recent mass stabbing via a "soldier of the Islamic State" in Milwaukee (he asked people if they were Muslim before attacking) (http://fox6now.com/2016/09/18/minnesota-mall-attack-man-shot-dead-after-stabbing-8-people/), the Orlando Shootings (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/), and the Boston Marathon bombing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombing), are we ready to admit that the migration experiment has failed?

EDIT: No, not all of those attacks were perpetrated by refugees or migrants, but the vast majority of refugees and migrants come from communities which espouse these fundamentalist tendencies and terror tactics, and these ideals can influence domestically born or recently converted American-Muslim individuals. Middle Eastern Islamic culture is simply incompatible with Western culture, American culture especially, unless it undergoes heavy reform, like some Muslims are calling for.

Until that is done, why can't we close our borders to the region? I'm not saying deport anybody who is already here. All I'd like is to prevent any migration from that area until tensions ease. There is precedent for it, such as blocking immigration from Germany and Japan during World War 2.

Porpoise101
October 4th, 2016, 04:37 PM
When Muslims decide they want to live among us in peace and let go of their plans to turn our country into the newest battleground for their Sunni-Shia holy wars (it might be far too late for that but we can still hope), I will welcome them with open arms.
Yours is a more interesting complaint I have to say. More interesting than 'potential for terror' or 'bad morals'.

From my POV, this seems to have less to do with a massive 'Muslim problem' than foreigners funding vocal radicals. This seems to have disrupted your nation in particular, worsening the issue. The issue isn't that the Muslims are bad, it is that your countrymen are being used as tools in a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis have been backed by the US for the last 30 years at least, so take that as it is. (Source (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/hezbollah-chief-our-budget-income-weapons-all-come-iran))


Until then, I won't have anything nice to say. If they're so determined to keep slaughtering each other while dragging the rest of us into a fresh new civil war, they have two countries to the east where they can do that, to their heart's content.

Well first, your nation is Muslim Majority (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/le.html). This means that in all likeliness, the majority of the victims of this violence are Muslim. These people aren't slaughtering each other, I'm not sure (correct me if I'm wrong), but they are in a situation not too different from yours.

Second point: your political system isn't working. This breeds radicalization in general, and it is not surprising that you are getting more violence. You would still have chaos in the country without the messiness of Iraq and Syria. It would be lessened, but still present. If you look at other areas in the world with corrupt regimes (India, Nigeria, Colombia), then you can see that it breeds radicals.

Another point of interest: you guys were colonized by the French. Like many former colonies, you were left in a political vacuum. Even when there was order, it was weak and you were invaded many times. There is no doubt the fact that your country has been destabilized repeatedly has played a part in the violence you see today.

To me, your country's problems are having bad neighbors and a bad government

phuckphace
October 4th, 2016, 04:56 PM
ever notice that only shitty backwards Third World countries still have a culturally-rooted system that centers around MUH HONOR?

before someone says it I'm aware that whites used to have something like this (more explanation forthcoming) but then again we also used to believe in Loki and Thor and give human sacrifices to Tiwaz in the Black Forest - we're good at being able to drop primitive stuff and adopt something better if it comes along. in this case we ditched the pagan zeros and started hanging with the heros (Jesus + his disciples + the Church's apologia) and haven't looked back since.

anyway, MUH HONOR combined with shitty fatalism is partly why Islam sucks so hard. a MUH HONOR system is really easy to game because the emphasis on not doing bad things isn't there and instead becomes "it only matters if somebody finds out." the durka durka version is especially bad because life is more or less valueless, and this is some of the wonderful stuff Muslim immigrants import along with their luggage. it's not suddenly neutralized by setting foot on our magic soil.

back to the topic of the Aryan version of MUH HONOR (Pistols at Noon, my goode Sire) it was decidedly less gory and sloppy when we did it. I doubt very many whites would just up and murder the fuck out of their own children (or toss them out of a window as a Muslim did recently in Germany) just for having rustled jimmies.

tl;dr build the wall

Porpoise101
October 4th, 2016, 05:11 PM
ever notice that only shitty backwards Third World countries still have a culturally-rooted system that centers around MUH HONOR?

Appalachia? European clan-based organized crime? Asian clan-based organized crime? Honor is very much alive concept in not-America.

we're good at being able to drop primitive stuff and adopt something better if it comes along. in this case we ditched the pagan zeros and started hanging with the heros (Jesus + his disciples + the Church's apologia) and haven't looked back since.

Fair point, the West has been pretty adaptive in the past 500 years, while the rest of the world has fluctuated in openness to ideas.

anyway, MUH HONOR combined with shitty fatalism is partly why Islam sucks so hard. a MUH HONOR system is really easy to game because the emphasis on not doing bad things isn't there and instead becomes "it only matters if somebody finds out." the durka durka version is especially bad because life is more or less valueless, and this is some of the wonderful stuff Muslim immigrants import along with their luggage. it's not suddenly neutralized by setting foot on our magic soil.

I think Islam is pretty clear about what is and isn't good. Often times, it is more clear and more harsh than Christianity. Islam isn't the religion where some random Anatolian essentially revised the faith after all.

back to the topic of the Aryan version of MUH HONOR (Pistols at Noon, my goode Sire) it was decidedly less gory and sloppy when we did it. I doubt very many whites would just up and murder the fuck out of their own children (or toss them out of a window as a Muslim did recently in Germany) just for having rustled jimmies.

Killing kids in Italy (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/children-murdered-mafia-italian-mobsters-3402712). However, it is interesting what you say. Germanic peoples don't really have this organized crime, organized honor killings, and this kind of system in general. Of course, these societies lose out on the benefits that they bring. The Germanics traded support for less tribalism as a whole.

Kahn
October 4th, 2016, 06:02 PM
Yours is a more interesting complaint I have to say. More interesting than 'potential for terror'

The "potential for terror" has become a reality. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks) I'm sorry that doesn't interest you!

The number of Islamic terrorist attacks has increased each year. This year there has been an attack every month, except for February. This list I provide fails to include the recent bombings in New York and New Jersey, and also fails to include the recent stabbing spree in Milwaukee by a so-called "Islamic state soldier." I guarantee you it's missing more.

or 'bad morals'
On the topic of "bad morals," here is a list of some of the most important tenets of sharia law. (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/islam-the-key-tenets-of-sharia/)

1. Abrogation (‘Al-mansukh wa al-nasikh’ in Arabic—the abrogated and the abrogating): Verses that come later in the Koran, chronologically, supersede, or abrogate, the earlier ones. In effect, this results in the more moderate verses of the Meccan period being abrogated by the later, violent, Medinan period.

2. Adultery (‘Zina’ in Arabic): Unlawful intercourse is a capital crime under sharia, punishable by lashing and stoning to death.

3. Apostasy (‘Irtidad’ or ‘Ridda’ in Arabic): The established ruling of sharia is that apostates are to be killed wherever they may be found.

4. Democracy & Islam: Any system of man-made law is considered illicit under Islamic law, for whose adherents Allah already has provided the only law permitted, Sharia. Islam and democracy can never co-exist in harmony.

5. Female Genital Mutilation.

6. Gender Inequality: Sharia explicitly relegates women to a status inferior to men.

• Testimony of a woman before a judge is worth half that of a man.

• Women are to receive just one half the inheritance of a male.

• Muslim men are given permission by Allah in the Koran to beat their wives.

• Muslim men are given permission by Allah to commit marital rape, as they please.

• Muslim men are permitted to marry up to four wives and to keep concubines in any number.

• Muslim women may marry only one Muslim man and are forbidden from marrying a non-Muslim.

• A woman may not travel outside the home without the permission of her male guardian and must be accompanied by a male family member if she does so.

• Under sharia, to bring a claim of rape, a Muslim woman must present four male Muslim witnesses in good standing. Islam thus places the burden of avoiding illicit sexual encounters entirely on the woman. In effect, under sharia, women who bring a claim of rape without being able to produce the requisite four male Muslim witnesses are admitting to having had illicit sex. If she or the man is married, this amounts to an admission of adultery.

Rape is a felony under U.S. law, but under Sharia Law it is not. It is akin to damaging something (the woman’s virginity), so the penalty is the usual cost of what was damaged – typically, $400 and up. There would be no jail time for rape, unless the man didn’t pay for the damages.

• A Muslim woman who divorces and remarries loses custody of children from a prior marriage.

7. ‘Honor’ Killing (a.k.a. Muslim family executions): A Muslim parent faces no legal penalty under Islamic law for killing his child or grandchild.

8. Hudud Punishments: The plural of hadd, is “a fixed penalty prescribed as a right of Allah. Because hudud penalties belong to Allah, Islamic law does not permit them to be waived or commuted.”

• “Sharia stipulates these punishments and methods of execution such as amputation, crucifixion, flogging, and stoning, for offenses such as adultery, homosexuality, killing without right, theft, and ‘spreading mischief in the land’ because these punishments were mandated by the Qur’an or Sunnah.” (Islamic Hudood Laws in Pakistan, Edn 1996, 5.)

9. Islamic Supremacism: belief that Islam is superior to every other culture, faith, government, and society and that it is ordained by Allah to conquer and dominate them.

10. Jew Hatred: Anti-Semitism is intrinsic to sharia and is based on the genocidal behavior of Mohammed himself in wiping out the entire Jewish population of the Arabian Peninsula.

11. Jihad: Jihad is warfare to spread Islam.

12. Lying/Taqiyya: It is permissible for a Muslim to lie, especially to non-Muslims, to safeguard himself personally or to protect Islam.

13. Slander/Blasphemy: In sharia, slander means anything that might offend a Muslim.

14. Underage Marriage: Islamic doctrine permits the marriage of pre-pubescent girls. There is no minimum age for a marriage contract and consummation may take place when the girl is age eight or nine.

15. Zakat: the obligation for Muslims to pay zakat arises out of Koran Verse 9:60 and is one of the Five Pillars of Islam. Zakat may be given only to Muslims, never to non-Muslims. What amounts to a mandatory tax is required to be given to those engaged in jihad which is among the authorized recipients.

• According to sharia, there are eight categories of recipients for Zakat: The poor; Those short of money; Zakat workers (those whose job it is to collect the zakat); Those whose hearts are to be reconciled; Those purchasing their freedom; Those in debt; Those fighting for Allah (Jihad); Travelers needing money (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.7-h8.18)

• “It is not permissible to give Zakat to a non-Muslim.” (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.24)

Following is a very small sample of Sharia Law teachings dictating “how Muslim men deal with their spouses”?

“Good women are obedient….As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” — Qur’an 4:34″

Circumcision is obligatory “The Reliance of the Traveller, a respected manual of Shafi’i jurisprudence, states “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris” – ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3

“If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.” — Sahih Bukhari 4.54.46

“By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel’s saddle.” — Ibn Majah 1854

Again, sorry this doesn't interest you!


I think Islam is pretty clear about what is and isn't good.

Same.

phuckphace
October 4th, 2016, 06:53 PM
there were also all those times (google it) when Muslim men used women as meat shields and minesweepers, but what's really problematic is Donald J. Trump's misogyny (trigger warning: he called one of his models fat)

PlasmaHam
October 4th, 2016, 07:03 PM
Kahn Great list there, but facts aren't going to get you too far here. I already know the response, and it will basically be nitpicking the minute details in an attempt to undermine the whole list, and then claim that nearly all Muslims follow that extremely nitpicky interpretation. It's almost like they're making up stuff as they go along.

phuckphace I see nothing wrong with basing a life off of honor. That was typical in Western societies for centuries until only recently. And arguably we were better off for it. However, I do think you are talking about people basing their lives around cultural honor, instead of personal honor. People will commit horrible moral atrocities and wrongs to achieve cultural honor. When taken to extremes, cultural honor has negative moral standings. However, personal honor is in oneself, and is based off morality and being the best you to you, instead of being what society sees as the best. I guess all that Star Trek watching occasionally pays off, qapl'a my friends!

phuckphace
October 4th, 2016, 07:11 PM
Star Trek was written by a proto-Redditor (Gene Roddenberry) who unnecessarily shoved a lot of anachronistic current-year stuff into what could've otherwise been Beaver and Wally learning life lessons from Ward onboard NCC-1488

Kahn
October 5th, 2016, 02:02 AM
Kahn Great list there, but facts aren't going to get you too far here. I already know the response, and it will basically be nitpicking the minute details in an attempt to undermine the whole list, and then claim that nearly all Muslims follow that extremely nitpicky interpretation. It's almost like they're making up stuff as they go along.

I have faith that eventually, something will click. Let them nitpick and rationalize- the evidence speaks for itself. Terror is on the rise. Islamic supremacism is a real threat to Western society.

I see nothing wrong with basing a life off of honor. That was typical in Western societies for centuries until only recently. And arguably we were better off for it. However, I do think you are talking about people basing their lives around cultural honor, instead of personal honor. People will commit horrible moral atrocities and wrongs to achieve cultural honor. When taken to extremes, cultural honor has negative moral standings. However, personal honor is in oneself, and is based off morality and being the best you to you, instead of being what society sees as the best. I guess all that Star Trek watching occasionally pays off, qapl'a my friends!

Honor is a fickle thing.

Vlerchan
October 5th, 2016, 05:40 AM
tl;dr Ohio Muslim refugee murders his own daughter, for "unknown reasons" according to police, due to a violation of the man's "honor" according to former Sharia Law attorney Daniel Akbari.
I am not sure what standard of evidence Mr. Akbari is used to in his Sharia courts, but the raw speculation he engaged in, in that article, would not make it near a Western courtroom.

It is no meaningful reflection on the case.

@Vlerchan can you remind me why we should alow hundreds of thousands of these people in our country?
Because those coming in from the Middle East have been subjected to a comprehensive review and have been deemed as posing no risk. Furthering their immiseration of one group because you are caught up on the actions of a dissimilar sample of the population, has no basis in reason.

You claimed before to support Trump's extreme vetting suggestion. If you wish, state how you believe the current procedure should be modified, unless you have changed your mind about extreme vetting.

No, not all of those attacks were perpetrated by refugees or migrants [...]
The perpetrators of the attacks were all either natural-born citizens, or refugees that entered the United States as victims of suffering wrought by non-Islamist actors.

In contrast, the current stock of refugees are escaping persecution by Islamists, of which I am sure their parents will notion to them.

[...] but the vast majority of refugees and migrants come from communities which espouse these fundamentalist tendencies and terror tactics, and these ideals can influence domestically born or recently converted American-Muslim individuals.
In one case did the migrant come to America at an age where he might have absorbed Islamic morality to any significant extent (Rahami was 12) and in that case he was seen to offer no indication of caring about it (he had a child, out of wedlock, with a Dominican girl in senior year), the issues tended to arise when they returned to their home state (like Rahami :: or found themselves online) and interacted with fundamentalists. It is further notable in the case of Rahami was reported to the FBI by his father - a refugee: Rahami migrated over, afterwards - and the FBI failed in their duties of a thorough investigation.

Given the backgrounds of all these, your narrative doesn't fit. It's more likely to be young, typically isolated and nihilistic men looking for a meaning in life that hyperconsumerism can't provide for them [or, those can't access]. It occurs to our men too, though radical-political culture has been typically passive since the 1990s.

That was typical in Western societies for centuries until only recently.
It's actually the still predominant form of moral culture in black communities, particularly inner-city ones.

It was also well displaced in the West by dignity-culture at about the turn of the 20th century.

However, I do think you are talking about people basing their lives around cultural honor, instead of personal honor.
Please define 'cultural honour. Thank you.

Jinglebottom
October 5th, 2016, 06:39 AM
Yours is a more interesting complaint I have to say. More interesting than 'potential for terror' or 'bad morals'.

From my POV, this seems to have less to do with a massive 'Muslim problem' than foreigners funding vocal radicals. This seems to have disrupted your nation in particular, worsening the issue. The issue isn't that the Muslims are bad, it is that your countrymen are being used as tools in a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis have been backed by the US for the last 30 years at least, so take that as it is. (Source (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/hezbollah-chief-our-budget-income-weapons-all-come-iran))
I know about the proxy war and all that jazz. All I'm saying is that this isn't limited to a minority of radicals. Most people I regularly speak to have spoken ill of the "other side". Hell, I've heard stories of how they had to change their name (from a Sunni to a Shia one and vice-versa) to avoid getting hurt in some areas. How pathetic is that? You tell me. Yet the same people wouldn't change their name to a Western one if they went to a Christian area.

The teachers at school are always preaching religious tolerance. That topic has its own independent class, where they show us movies/tapes from the civil war era to highlight the destruction and casualties that the war left. I believe this is their way of telling us "stop hating each other, you idiots, because this is what happens when you do".

Well first, your nation is Muslim Majority (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/le.html). This means that in all likeliness, the majority of the victims of this violence are Muslim. These people aren't slaughtering each other, I'm not sure (correct me if I'm wrong), but they are in a situation not too different from yours.
I'm gonna pretend it's 54% Muslim (I bet that number has gotten A LOT higher), so that leaves us with the 46% that isn't Muslim. Still a very large percentage, to be honest (46% is almost half!).

The majority of the victims are Muslim because the violence almost always begins in Muslim-majority areas (Beirut, Tripoli, Bekaa...). Violence perpetrated by Muslims, usually against Muslims, occasionally non-Muslims. But once the country goes to shit, we're all screwed.

To me, your country's problems are having bad neighbors and a bad government
I like the saying "our politicians have no religion, the only god they know is money." :yes:

Porpoise101
October 5th, 2016, 04:46 PM
The "potential for terror" has become a reality. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks) I'm sorry that doesn't interest you!

The number of Islamic terrorist attacks has increased each year. This year there has been an attack every month, except for February. This list I provide fails to include the recent bombings in New York and New Jersey, and also fails to include the recent stabbing spree in Milwaukee by a so-called "Islamic state soldier." I guarantee you it's missing more.


On the topic of "bad morals," here is a list of some of the most important tenets of sharia law. (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/islam-the-key-tenets-of-sharia/)

1. Abrogation (‘Al-mansukh wa al-nasikh’ in Arabic—the abrogated and the abrogating): Verses that come later in the Koran, chronologically, supersede, or abrogate, the earlier ones. In effect, this results in the more moderate verses of the Meccan period being abrogated by the later, violent, Medinan period.

2. Adultery (‘Zina’ in Arabic): Unlawful intercourse is a capital crime under sharia, punishable by lashing and stoning to death.

3. Apostasy (‘Irtidad’ or ‘Ridda’ in Arabic): The established ruling of sharia is that apostates are to be killed wherever they may be found.

4. Democracy & Islam: Any system of man-made law is considered illicit under Islamic law, for whose adherents Allah already has provided the only law permitted, Sharia. Islam and democracy can never co-exist in harmony.

5. Female Genital Mutilation.

6. Gender Inequality: Sharia explicitly relegates women to a status inferior to men.

• Testimony of a woman before a judge is worth half that of a man.

• Women are to receive just one half the inheritance of a male.

• Muslim men are given permission by Allah in the Koran to beat their wives.

• Muslim men are given permission by Allah to commit marital rape, as they please.

• Muslim men are permitted to marry up to four wives and to keep concubines in any number.

• Muslim women may marry only one Muslim man and are forbidden from marrying a non-Muslim.

• A woman may not travel outside the home without the permission of her male guardian and must be accompanied by a male family member if she does so.

• Under sharia, to bring a claim of rape, a Muslim woman must present four male Muslim witnesses in good standing. Islam thus places the burden of avoiding illicit sexual encounters entirely on the woman. In effect, under sharia, women who bring a claim of rape without being able to produce the requisite four male Muslim witnesses are admitting to having had illicit sex. If she or the man is married, this amounts to an admission of adultery.

Rape is a felony under U.S. law, but under Sharia Law it is not. It is akin to damaging something (the woman’s virginity), so the penalty is the usual cost of what was damaged – typically, $400 and up. There would be no jail time for rape, unless the man didn’t pay for the damages.

• A Muslim woman who divorces and remarries loses custody of children from a prior marriage.

7. ‘Honor’ Killing (a.k.a. Muslim family executions): A Muslim parent faces no legal penalty under Islamic law for killing his child or grandchild.

8. Hudud Punishments: The plural of hadd, is “a fixed penalty prescribed as a right of Allah. Because hudud penalties belong to Allah, Islamic law does not permit them to be waived or commuted.”

• “Sharia stipulates these punishments and methods of execution such as amputation, crucifixion, flogging, and stoning, for offenses such as adultery, homosexuality, killing without right, theft, and ‘spreading mischief in the land’ because these punishments were mandated by the Qur’an or Sunnah.” (Islamic Hudood Laws in Pakistan, Edn 1996, 5.)

9. Islamic Supremacism: belief that Islam is superior to every other culture, faith, government, and society and that it is ordained by Allah to conquer and dominate them.

10. Jew Hatred: Anti-Semitism is intrinsic to sharia and is based on the genocidal behavior of Mohammed himself in wiping out the entire Jewish population of the Arabian Peninsula.

11. Jihad: Jihad is warfare to spread Islam.

12. Lying/Taqiyya: It is permissible for a Muslim to lie, especially to non-Muslims, to safeguard himself personally or to protect Islam.

13. Slander/Blasphemy: In sharia, slander means anything that might offend a Muslim.

14. Underage Marriage: Islamic doctrine permits the marriage of pre-pubescent girls. There is no minimum age for a marriage contract and consummation may take place when the girl is age eight or nine.

15. Zakat: the obligation for Muslims to pay zakat arises out of Koran Verse 9:60 and is one of the Five Pillars of Islam. Zakat may be given only to Muslims, never to non-Muslims. What amounts to a mandatory tax is required to be given to those engaged in jihad which is among the authorized recipients.

• According to sharia, there are eight categories of recipients for Zakat: The poor; Those short of money; Zakat workers (those whose job it is to collect the zakat); Those whose hearts are to be reconciled; Those purchasing their freedom; Those in debt; Those fighting for Allah (Jihad); Travelers needing money (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.7-h8.18)

• “It is not permissible to give Zakat to a non-Muslim.” (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.24)

Following is a very small sample of Sharia Law teachings dictating “how Muslim men deal with their spouses”?

“Good women are obedient….As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” — Qur’an 4:34″

Circumcision is obligatory “The Reliance of the Traveller, a respected manual of Shafi’i jurisprudence, states “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris” – ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3

“If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.” — Sahih Bukhari 4.54.46

“By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel’s saddle.” — Ibn Majah 1854

Again, sorry this doesn't interest you!



Same.
I made a nice effort-post, but it got wiped :(:(

I don't have more time to re-type it, I will get back to you

Paraxiom
October 7th, 2016, 07:54 PM
I now understand why Jews invented nukes.

I don't think nuclear weaponry was invented with defence against Islam in mind.


tl;dr build the wall

At this point you may as well say TL;DR for all those wall reminders and then go build Castle Black at El Paso.


Great list there, but facts aren't going to get you too far here. I already know the response, and it will basically be nitpicking the minute details in an attempt to undermine the whole list, and then claim that nearly all Muslims follow that extremely nitpicky interpretation. It's almost like they're making up stuff as they go along.

Repetition has transcended me beyond any motivation to tackle the array of arguments raised by Kahn that you go with, if you wonder why I am not responding.


I have faith that eventually, something will click. Let them nitpick and rationalize- the evidence speaks for itself. Terror is on the rise. Islamic supremacism is a real threat to Western society.

Evidence speaks what we want to speak, rather than it speaking anything for itself. We all have some intrinsic confirmation bias as well.

'Terror' is on the rise indeed, and it is certainly not like the way you simplistically see it to be.

We/you don't conveniently happen to live in the lands of the good guys (nor do those 'on the other side').

Porpoise101
October 9th, 2016, 02:37 PM
The "potential for terror" has become a reality. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks) I'm sorry that doesn't interest you!

Interesting you place the blame on Islam, rather than something that has more historical weight to it, say, corruption, disenfranchisement, or governmental impotence.

On the topic of "bad morals," here is a list of some of the most important tenets of sharia law. (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/islam-the-key-tenets-of-sharia/)

I can't take this list seriously. Not when it comes from a wordpress blog called 'The Muslim Issue'. Yet I will still try to take this list at face value.

1. Abrogation (‘Al-mansukh wa al-nasikh’ in Arabic—the abrogated and the abrogating): Verses that come later in the Koran, chronologically, supersede, or abrogate, the earlier ones. In effect, this results in the more moderate verses of the Meccan period being abrogated by the later, violent, Medinan period.

Seems normal to have the more recent stuff supersede the older stuff. Doesn't mention the period of peace later in life either.

2. Adultery (‘Zina’ in Arabic): Unlawful intercourse is a capital crime under sharia, punishable by lashing and stoning to death.

Stoning is a backwards practice, but execution in theory isn't terrible.

3. Apostasy (‘Irtidad’ or ‘Ridda’ in Arabic): The established ruling of sharia is that apostates are to be killed wherever they may be found.

The early Islamic community functioned as a polity as well as a religious system. To go against Islam at the time was seen as a crime against the entire community. They had to be strict considering they were outnumbered early on.

4. Democracy & Islam: Any system of man-made law is considered illicit under Islamic law, for whose adherents Allah already has provided the only law permitted, Sharia. Islam and democracy can never co-exist in harmony.

Then how did they live previously? There hasn't been a true Islamic state since the Rashidun Caliphate. Religion is only a portion of one's life. Take the Ottoman Empire. This is a government we consider "Islamic". Yet it still went by Islamic, Roman, and Qanuni (Traditional Turkish Canon) Law. Almost all nations we consider Islamic have a man made system to them.

5. Female Genital Mutilation.

"An African Problem" @ Politifact (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/oct/02/reza-aslan/fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/)

6. Gender Inequality: Sharia explicitly relegates women to a status inferior to men.

• Testimony of a woman before a judge is worth half that of a man.

• Women are to receive just one half the inheritance of a male.

This was to actually guarantee that women had any status to begin with. In pre-Islamic Arabia, women had no status or protection. Muhammad gave them a legal standing and guaranteed them inheritance, a radical concept at the time. Now, it does seem obsolete and backwards. But the context it was pretty progressive to implement these rules.

7. ‘Honor’ Killing (a.k.a. Muslim family executions): A Muslim parent faces no legal penalty under Islamic law for killing his child or grandchild.

I would like to mention that this honor concept is very prevalent in many societies of the world. It isn't just an Islamic thing, but it is prevalent in South Asian communities in general. Even in Pakistan, they are trying to stamp it out.

8. Hudud Punishments: The plural of hadd, is “a fixed penalty prescribed as a right of Allah. Because hudud penalties belong to Allah, Islamic law does not permit them to be waived or commuted.”

• “Sharia stipulates these punishments and methods of execution such as amputation, crucifixion, flogging, and stoning, for offenses such as adultery, homosexuality, killing without right, theft, and ‘spreading mischief in the land’ because these punishments were mandated by the Qur’an or Sunnah.” (Islamic Hudood Laws in Pakistan, Edn 1996, 5.)

I am not certain about this stuff, but keep in mind that Islamic Law is interpreted in various different schools of thought. Even inside a school, there is a difference of interpretation per juror.
Here is a map to give you an idea of the different styles of jurisprudence
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Madhhab_Map3.png

9. Islamic Supremacism: belief that Islam is superior to every other culture, faith, government, and society and that it is ordained by Allah to conquer and dominate them.

Why wouldn't you state that your system is better than all others? Especially if you claim divine supremacy?

10. Jew Hatred: Anti-Semitism is intrinsic to sharia and is based on the genocidal behavior of Mohammed himself in wiping out the entire Jewish population of the Arabian Peninsula.

He didn't wipe out the Jewish community. All he did was invade a Jewish kingdom in Yemen. These Jews weren't even good ones to begin with, they were responsible for massacring Ethiopian Christians and forcefully converting them. Muhammad didn't resort to these tactics against the Jewish community. Muhammad also placed protections on the Christian and Jewish communities of Arabia as well.

11. Jihad: Jihad is warfare to spread Islam.

Various definitions:
By Muslims (http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9)
Dictionary Definition (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jihad)

While it can be warfare as your list states, it also is a struggle for betterment of self. And this is the one most emphasized.

12. Lying/Taqiyya: It is permissible for a Muslim to lie, especially to non-Muslims, to safeguard himself personally or to protect Islam.

Once again, in the context of the early community being persecuted. They were under threat and they needed to protect their lives.

13. Slander/Blasphemy: In sharia, slander means anything that might offend a Muslim.

Didn't know about this one

14. Underage Marriage: Islamic doctrine permits the marriage of pre-pubescent girls. There is no minimum age for a marriage contract and consummation may take place when the girl is age eight or nine.

As did the rest of the world in the 7th century. At least in that time, the woman would have some social standing. This stands in contrast to the rest of the world at the time.

15. Zakat: the obligation for Muslims to pay zakat arises out of Koran Verse 9:60 and is one of the Five Pillars of Islam. Zakat may be given only to Muslims, never to non-Muslims. What amounts to a mandatory tax is required to be given to those engaged in jihad which is among the authorized recipients.

• According to sharia, there are eight categories of recipients for Zakat: The poor; Those short of money; Zakat workers (those whose job it is to collect the zakat); Those whose hearts are to be reconciled; Those purchasing their freedom; Those in debt; Those fighting for Allah (Jihad); Travelers needing money (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.7-h8.18)

• “It is not permissible to give Zakat to a non-Muslim.” (‘Umdat al-Salik, h8.24)

Zakat is a mandated charity, not a tax as this list suggests. Also: this text the list is only one of a single school of Islam. You can't extrapolate that to the Muslim world, as that would be inaccurate.

Following is a very small sample of Sharia Law teachings dictating “how Muslim men deal with their spouses”?

“Good women are obedient….As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” — Qur’an 4:34″

Circumcision is obligatory “The Reliance of the Traveller, a respected manual of Shafi’i jurisprudence, states “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris” – ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3

“If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.” — Sahih Bukhari 4.54.46

“By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel’s saddle.” — Ibn Majah 1854

Again, different interpretations as I said earlier. Obviously the Shafi'i style of jurisprudence is troubling. But that isn't the whole of the faith. Even the Qur'an can be interpreted differently.

Again, sorry this doesn't interest you!

No need to apologize. After all, I am the apologist here.

Same.
At least we agree on this?

Flapjack
October 9th, 2016, 03:23 PM
A little educational video
mjBnIdEbBxo

Vlerchan
October 9th, 2016, 03:30 PM
A little educational video
mjBnIdEbBxo
I haven't watched the video - I have limited broadband, I amn't keen to waste it on what I am sure is a redundant point - but that nuclear weapons have a quite slim chance of killing us, is no reason to not be weary of the potential devastation that can be wrought.

---

Porpoise101's post also thought me a tonne I didn't already know, not sure about anyone else.

ThisBougieLife
October 9th, 2016, 10:03 PM
Some of it I didn't know, though a lot of it was just the usual Muslim apologist points. Doesn't mean they're wrong, but like many religious points, they ultimately boil down to: it depends on the interpretation.

The explanation of "jihad" is the one I hear the most. A frequent Muslim poster on another site stated that "jihad" was more of a personal struggle than armed warfare (though it could be that in cases of self-defense). That seems reasonable to me, but this does not mean "jihad" was never historically interpreted as aggressive warfare against non-believers. The main point being that the ISIS/Al-Qaeda interpretation is just one among many, but certainly not the one shared by a majority of Muslims. That's I think the most important point. The ability to separate extremist interpretations from the most common ones. As we all know, the example of the Crusades shows that even the Bible could be interpreted to sanction holy war against non-believers.

Another issue that would be interesting to address is the idea of death for apostasy. While I don't believe this is mandated by the Qur'an, there are a few ahadith that call for capital punishment for apostasy. Of course, the hadith is even more open to interpretation than the Qur'an, since not even all Muslims agree on what ahadith are to be accepted.

Flapjack
October 13th, 2016, 10:12 AM
for those that still deny Islamophobia exists:
fxsO6DT108o

Reece L
October 13th, 2016, 10:59 AM
A little educational video
mjBnIdEbBxo

Dude you must have a iq of -100! "Things more likely to kill you then a terriost attack?" You for real? You must really really be dumb.
Isis have currently 1,000,000 members. Planning attacks..while your sleeping...Isis are planning attacks ALL over the world. Small city's, big, events, company's...dude you clearly need more education..... I'm sure the people in Paris, Brussels, Berlin, Vegas, Spain, Syria, Iraq, turkey, Isreal, Cali, and many more thought the'd be safe. But no. Attacks happen almost a lot now.

Same as in the uk. MI5, SAS, RAF, ARMY, MI7, EVERYONE has foiled attacks. Isis have failed over 98 attacks on the British people. But I'm sure that they might slip a few attacks and succeed. In the USA, in Ohio, police just in time, stopped a Isis dickhead, going into a restaurant with a machete and a rifle. And this was on New Years night, oh yeah.

Let's talk about the 9/11 attack that azhole bin Lardan did..he wasn't Isis, but I'm sure those people in the twin towers, thought the'd live thill old age. What about the attempt to kill the United States president while flying a plane into the White House yard? 1994 some crazy douche tried to fly his plane into the White House. But failed as he hit the grass.

What about the attempted attack on London? Sighting of bombs everyday, is now common in London. But are quickly disarmed. isis have attacked London.lots. But not as bad as Paris. Some Syrian refugee, who supported Isis, beheaded a man in a train station, In London, was tasered 7 times, Isis have killed 30 people, and assaulted many. Look at the refuge camp in Germany. Isis pretended to be refugees but 200 people was caught out to be Isis wanting to attack Germans, Germany and Paris are most common places now where terriosts meet up!

Now stop with your BS! Young Turks are stupid. They have no brain cells.

Ik plenty Muslims. I know there all nit bad. All religions have nutters in. I like Muslims. I was invited over to mosques a lot of times for dinner. I LOVED IT. If Muslims wanted to take over us...they would have tried already.

Maye think, before posting about shit you don't know about. And btw Isis have nucler material and weapons. They just don't have the equipment to launch them...YET!

Gay and proud

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fb/94/81/fb9481b27c40ff1258141c325fc0c788.gif

http://www.zingerbug.com/Comments/glitter_graphics/waving_crossed_gay_pride_flags.gif

Flapjack
October 13th, 2016, 11:23 AM
Dude you must have a iq of -100!
Whoop whoop negative iq xD Always knew I was simple, now I know why xD

Isis have currently 1,000,000 members.
Incorrect, somehow me and my negative iq could work a keyboard and mouse and google it xD
U.S. intelligence estimates that ISIL has a total force of somewhere between 9,000 to 18,000 fighters (http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/22/politics/us-officials-say-6000-isis-fighters-killed-in-battles/). CIA estimations about the group was between 20,000 and 31,500 fighters (http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/09/12/CIA-ISIS-has-20-000-to-31-500-fighters-in-Iraq-and-Syria.html), in its Iraq and Syria holdings.
Planning attacks..while your sleeping...Isis are planning attacks ALL over the world.
This is a good example of the fear mongering of the right wing, yeah they are evil people and yeah they are planning terrorist attacks, no one is disputing that!

What is being disputed it how much of a threat they pose! They is illustrated by the number of people killed in the US compared to other stuff!!

The fear of ISIS is also being used to justify discrimination against normal Muslims.

dude you clearly need more education....
More education or brainwashing into believing what you believe? XD
Young Turks are stupid. They have no brain cells. Ik plenty Muslims. I know there all nit bad.
Stupid because they disagree with you? Do you accept that the facts in the video were correct?
Isis have nucler material and weapons. They just don't have the equipment to launch them...YET!
More evidence of the fear mongering.
Gay and proud image image
Not relevant but good for you xD

Reece L
October 13th, 2016, 11:46 AM
Whoop whoop negative iq xD Always knew I was simple, now I know why xD

Incorrect, somehow me and my negative iq could work a keyboard and mouse and google it xD


This is a good example of the fear mongering of the right wing, yeah they are evil people and yeah they are planning terrorist attacks, no one is disputing that!

What is being disputed it how much of a threat they pose! They is illustrated by the number of people killed in the US compared to other stuff!!

The fear of ISIS is also being used to justify discrimination against normal Muslims.


More education or brainwashing into believing what you believe? XD

Stupid because they disagree with you? Do you accept that the facts in the video were correct?

More evidence of the fear mongering.

Not relevant but good for you xD

Lol. Videos are not proof from a couple of people. It's a vid that dosnt state NOTHING. and young Turks are not official, and don't have ANY IQ. I haven't watched that vid cause it's a waste of time. And they are douche bags, if u think ur safe from Isis, think again mate! Hahahah...

Flapjack
October 13th, 2016, 11:54 AM
Lol. Hahahah...
Am I missing the funny part of the debate on Islamophobia?
Videos are not proof from a couple of people.
If you watch the video they list official sources of the information....
It's a vid that dosnt state NOTHING. I haven't watched that vid cause it's a waste of time.
1. If you haven't watched it then how would you know it states nothing?
2. It obviously states something xD
don't have ANY IQ.
You have an obsession with people's iq xD
if u think ur safe from Isis, think again mate!
As I stated... I do not think ISIS is not a thread, I think the threat has been blown wayyy out of proportion and is used in fear mongering for right-wing polices that worsen the problem.

Reece L
October 13th, 2016, 12:23 PM
Am I missing the funny part of the debate on Islamophobia?

If you watch the video they list official sources of the information....

1. If you haven't watched it then how would you know it states nothing?
2. It obviously states something xD

You have an obsession with people's iq xD

As I stated... I do not think ISIS is not a thread, I think the threat has been blown wayyy out of proportion and is used in fear mongering for right-wing polices that worsen the problem.

You can tell by the title. And I know the young Turks..there spastics....and tbh idc... I dont know them in RL, I've seen a few of there vids. I'd rather be stoned watching sonic, or being with my man high, I only watch chit when I smoke weed. Skunk, Death Star... Amazing strain, but weak. Always wanted to smoke up moon rocks. Any ways have fun. If anyone believes a YouTube vid there safe from Isis, even tho I ain't watched it and not seen it, I can already tell, those guys are spanners.

Gay and proud


http://www.zingerbug.com/Comments/glitter_graphics/waving_crossed_gay_pride_flags.gif

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fb/94/81/fb9481b27c40ff1258141c325fc0c788.gif

Vlerchan
October 13th, 2016, 12:25 PM
What happened to my beautiful ROTW?

PlasmaHam
October 13th, 2016, 12:28 PM
As I stated... I do not think ISIS is not a thread, I think the threat has been blown wayyy out of proportion and is used in fear mongering for right-wing polices that worsen the problem.
So, a group than is murdering tens of thousands of innocent people, and are engaging in numerous terror attacks across the world, isn't a threat? And saying that those events are happening is inherently fear-mongering? Between you and Mattsmith, it seems like the left's policy is to keep everything a secret and only let state propaganda allowed for the public.

I guess the left-wing claims that cops are racist and are killing innocent black people all the time isn't fear mongering to you.

StoppingTom
October 13th, 2016, 03:11 PM
What happened to my beautiful ROTW?

You know that scene in The Simpsons where Groundskeeper Willy says "the Scots ruined Scotland"? Same premise.

Porpoise101
October 13th, 2016, 04:15 PM
but like many religious points, they ultimately boil down to: it depends on the interpretation.
And this is what I come down to as well. Since Islam is down to interpretation, I don't consider it much different from other religions. If we go back to the main idea of 'islamophobia', it doesn't really make sense to persecute Muslims because they are not much different from other religious folk as a whole.

Often times we forget that religion is just one part of the person. In my view, occupation, environment, and culture play as much of a role as religion in the daily lives of the majority of those who call themselves religious.

Porpoise101
October 31st, 2016, 05:58 PM
I thought this funny vid I found on a post from 2013 was relevant to this thread :D
Rs9oDvYHihc

Stronk Serb
October 31st, 2016, 06:37 PM
Muslims are not the problem, Islam is. It is like Inquisition-era Christianity now, it needs a wave of free thinkers and internal reforms to curb it's influence in everyday lives and defeat radicalism.

Flapjack
November 1st, 2016, 10:24 AM
Muslims are not the problem, Islam is. It is like Inquisition-era Christianity now, it needs a wave of free thinkers and internal reforms to curb it's influence in everyday lives and defeat radicalism.
How about we say radicals of any religion are bad and need to be combated? I don't care whether it is a Christian or Islamic terrorist attack, it is still a terrorist attack.

I would also like to add that there are over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and ISIS had 20,000 to 31,500 members. The threat posed by ISIS is greatly exaggerated and as I have previously stated, you are more likely to die falling out of bed in the USA than be a victim of an Islamic terrorist attack.

I also think it is hypocritical to call a Christian or an Atheist terrorist just a crazy one and then use a Islamic terrorist to judge a whole religion and discriminate against them.

Stronk Serb
November 1st, 2016, 12:20 PM
How about we say radicals of any religion are bad and need to be combated? I don't care whether it is a Christian or Islamic terrorist attack, it is still a terrorist attack.

I would also like to add that there are over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and ISIS had 20,000 to 31,500 members. The threat posed by ISIS is greatly exaggerated and as I have previously stated, you are more likely to die falling out of bed in the USA than be a victim of an Islamic terrorist attack.

I also think it is hypocritical to call a Christian or an Atheist terrorist just a crazy one and then use a Islamic terrorist to judge a whole religion and discriminate against them.

Did you just assume I am islamophobic? No. Core of Islam, especially the parts adhered by radicals need to go. Christianity reformed itself in the same manner and now it excercises far less influence than it had 300 years ago. Since that time the amount of radical Christian and Christian terrorism dropped. The same can happen to Islam if we support the free thinkers and reformists of the islamic society.

PlasmaHam
November 1st, 2016, 03:49 PM
How about we say radicals of any religion are bad and need to be combated? I don't care whether it is a Christian or Islamic terrorist attack, it is still a terrorist attack.Sure, but the real problem is that certain religions can very easily be translated as a call of war against unbelievers, especially when the founder of said religion did just that. And it isn't just Islamic Radicals here. Many notable Muslim scholars, who do not actively support violence, still see discrimination, slavery, and rape as completely and morally right. Qatar, Saudi Arabia and other rich, Muslim countries still have active slave trades, and open worship of any religion but Islam is banned. There is not a single Christian church in Saudi Arabia despite Christianity once being the dominate religion in the area.

I would also like to add that there are over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and ISIS had 20,000 to 31,500 members. The threat posed by ISIS is greatly exaggerated and as I have previously stated, you are more likely to die falling out of bed in the USA than be a victim of an Islamic terrorist attack.
You are more likely to die from a vending machine than dying from nukes or war with Russia, yet you threat both of those like humongous threats. This is a matter of personal perspective, you want to see Russia and Trump as a threat, you don't want to see ISIS as such.

Porpoise101
November 1st, 2016, 05:02 PM
Did you just assume I am islamophobic? No. Core of Islam, especially the parts adhered by radicals need to go. Christianity reformed itself in the same manner and now it excercises far less influence than it had 300 years ago. Since that time the amount of radical Christian and Christian terrorism dropped. The same can happen to Islam if we support the free thinkers and reformists of the islamic society.
Christianity didn't reform itself. The people did. They called for secular, liberal/communist governments or had them imposed on them by Allied powers. In places with radical change (Germany, Austria, Russian Empire), they had lasting issues which lasted for years, and would have lasted longer if they weren't invaded and re-formed as nations.

These free-thinkers you write about are going to cause a lot of social chaos if they have nearly the same impact that Enlightenment thinkers, communists, and other reformists had on Europe.

ThisBougieLife
November 1st, 2016, 05:24 PM
I read a book that argued that there is a large but somewhat unnoticed (at least by the West) Muslim "centrist" wing and that true change is going to come from them. His argument was about the Muslim "middle way" that is obviously a rejection of violent extremism, but not a kowtow to Western values and dominance either.

https://www.amazon.com/One-Islam-Many-Muslim-Worlds/dp/0199846472

I'd recommend it anyone interested in the idea of Islamic "reformation". It's also not as polemical as the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Heretic", though she brings up some valid points as well, particularly about Islamic complacency in oppression of women.

Flapjack
November 1st, 2016, 05:36 PM
You are more likely to die from a vending machine than dying from nukes or war with Russia, yet you threat both of those like humongous threats. This is a matter of personal perspective, you want to see Russia and Trump as a threat, you don't want to see ISIS as such.
I never said ISIS is not a threat, they are. Not so much to the American public but the people in the countries terrorised by them. As I am sure you know the vast majority of the victims of ISIS are Muslim? What I said what ISIS is not a significant enough threat to justify discriminating against an entire race and all the horrific consequences the USA will have to deal with if it should ever enforce that policy. (The USA never will actually enforce that policy)

Stronk Serb
November 2nd, 2016, 02:47 AM
Christianity didn't reform itself. The people did. They called for secular, liberal/communist governments or had them imposed on them by Allied powers. In places with radical change (Germany, Austria, Russian Empire), they had lasting issues which lasted for years, and would have lasted longer if they weren't invaded and re-formed as nations.

These free-thinkers you write about are going to cause a lot of social chaos if they have nearly the same impact that Enlightenment thinkers, communists, and other reformists had on Europe.

It is neccessary. The islamic society needs ro be reformed, secularized. Now it is standing on a crossroads between reverting back to their savage begginings or moving towards their own version of Enlightenment.

phuckphace
November 2nd, 2016, 10:36 AM
What happened to my beautiful ROTW?

it died of AIDS

Porpoise101
November 2nd, 2016, 04:59 PM
I read a book that argued that there is a large but somewhat unnoticed (at least by the West) Muslim "centrist" wing and that true change is going to come from them. His argument was about the Muslim "middle way" that is obviously a rejection of violent extremism, but not a kowtow to Western values and dominance either.
That's actually pretty common of post-colonial writers around the world. You will see similar patterns in Indian, African, and Chinese works, each with their own spin on how Western culture is not completely sufficient for their nation.

PlasmaHam
November 5th, 2016, 09:57 AM
What I said what ISIS is not a significant enough threat to justify discriminating against an entire race and all the horrific consequences the USA will have to deal with if it should ever enforce that policy. (The USA never will actually enforce that policy)
Ah, you continued your policy of calling policies you don't like as racist. Especially funny when said policies have absolutely nothing to do with race, unless of course you are so racist you think all people from the Middle East are Muslims, which is racial stereotyping.

Flapjack
November 5th, 2016, 10:11 AM
Ah, you continued your policy of calling policies you don't like as racist. Especially funny when said policies have absolutely nothing to do with race, unless of course you are so racist you think all people from the Middle East are Muslims, which is racial stereotyping.
This is what I said:
I never said ISIS is not a threat, they are. Not so much to the American public but the people in the countries terrorised by them. As I am sure you know the vast majority of the victims of ISIS are Muslim? What I said what ISIS is not a significant enough threat to justify discriminating against an entire race and all the horrific consequences the USA will have to deal with if it should ever enforce that policy. (The USA never will actually enforce that policy)

I didn't even call the policy racist in that post? Seems like you ignoring me debunking your post... again! Gosh this feels like climate change and evolution all over again.

You are right Islam is not a race (Sidenote~ I love how all racists think that justifies Islamophobia XD) but Trump was not calling a bad from people entering from the Middle East, he was calling for a ban on Muslims. So no I wasn't racially profiling people from the Middle East.

Porpoise101
November 5th, 2016, 12:06 PM
Ah, you continued your policy of calling policies you don't like as racist. Especially funny when said policies have absolutely nothing to do with race, unless of course you are so racist you think all people from the Middle East are Muslims, which is racial stereotyping.
The policy is not based on race, it would be based on religion as you say. First of all, I would be clear and say that such a policy would be struck down by the Supreme Court if it was religion based. It could be ethnically/nationality based, in which case it has a whole other slew of issues around it.

My main issue with enacting these types of policies (besides ethnic discrimination) is that it has a backlash effect on Americans. There is a large increase (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/us/politics/hate-crimes-american-muslims-rise.html?_r=0) in hate crimes committed against Muslim Americans this year. And there is another spike of them against Hindus and Sikhs even though we aren't Muslim. Things like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting) make me more than a little worried that some crazy hick will come and kill me because of where I am and what they think I am. Imagine if the government made discrimination the policy, what would happen to us Americans?

Paraxiom
November 6th, 2016, 08:23 PM
it died of AIDS

*facepalm*

- - - - - - - -

I wonder if this thread will get a resurgence after Tuesday...

PlasmaHam
November 6th, 2016, 08:28 PM
I wonder if this thread will get a resurgence after Tuesday...

I'm just hoping to finally end the Trump vs Clinton debate so we can discuss other topics. As much as I enjoy politics, we have spent months analyzing and debating a single issue, which is a bit too long for me.

Paraxiom
November 6th, 2016, 08:49 PM
I'm just hoping to finally end the Trump vs Clinton debate so we can discuss other topics. As much as I enjoy politics, we have spent months analyzing and debating a single issue, which is a bit too long for me.

I'm also past tired with this series of events before the election (probably way more so than you are), but I don't think that the election results will bring an all-round finality soon.