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Flapjack
August 30th, 2016, 09:52 PM
Heyyy guys!! This isn't going to be a long OP because it is 4am and Jack needs sleep :P

What is your opinions on corporal punishment?

I think it is abuse and does more harm then good :)

DriveAlive
August 30th, 2016, 10:06 PM
Agreed

eric2001
August 30th, 2016, 10:13 PM
I'm with you. No HITTING!

ThisBougieLife
August 30th, 2016, 11:40 PM
I suppose for some children it may be the only form of discipline they respond to.

In general however I believe there is always a better away. I was never spanked or corporally punished in any way and I'm glad for that.

Dalcourt
August 31st, 2016, 01:53 AM
Heyyy guys!! This isn't going to be a long OP because it is 4am and Jack needs sleep :P

What is your opinions on corporal punishment?

I think it is abuse and does more harm then good :)

Agreed

I'm with you guys here.

jamie_n5
August 31st, 2016, 11:06 AM
Yeah I think that talking to kids or people about what was bad or wrong is the way to deal with it. Whaling on and hitting someone is not a way to do things.

candorgen
August 31st, 2016, 12:26 PM
I'm not okay with it outside a legal punishment setting; I may be okay with it in that setting.

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 31st, 2016, 10:01 PM
I'm fine with it, physical punishment often work much better than whatever parents are doing these days. I know that from experience.

I have experienced corporal punishment by the way. For years it was typical for a whipping if I did wrong. And you know what that taught me? That the consequences for doing wrong are harsh, and that has helped me considerably through life. You actually learn to respect authority and that doing wrong in the real world will not just result in a talking to and being let free.
I hold no ill feelings towards my parents for it, and would probably do the same if I have children. I feel it has shaped me towards the better, but it is also something I believe you can't understand until you experience it. You could say I'm secretly mentally traumatized or something like that, but I wouldn't believe you.

Dalcourt
August 31st, 2016, 10:57 PM
I'm fine with it, physical punishment often work much better than whatever parents are doing these days. I know that from experience.

I have experienced corporal punishment by the way. For years it was typical for a whipping if I did wrong. And you know what that taught me? That the consequences for doing wrong are harsh, and that has helped me considerably through life. You actually learn to respect authority and that doing wrong in the real world will not just result in a talking to and being let free.
I hold no ill feelings towards my parents for it, and would probably do the same if I have children. I feel it has shaped me towards the better, but it is also something I believe you can't understand until you experience it. You could say I'm secretly mentally traumatized or something like that, but I wouldn't believe you.

Of course you wouldn't believe anyone if they told you that you are secretly traumatised cuz the way you were brought up brainwashed you into thinking this kind of parenting is right and justified.
So from pro corporal punishment people you always get the same standardised answer why this form of punishment is good and not harmful. How it has worked for them and ah I'm to lazy to repeat it all...sounds like being drilled in with the punishment doesn't it?

I honestly have no idea whether beating kids works or not I have never seen statistics that proved it or not. And whether it might leave a kid traumatised or whatever greatly depends on how the punishment is dealt out I guess.

Nevertheless where do you draw the line between between punishment and abuse?
In what cases would parents go too far?
How should it be regulated...I mean there are certain laws for certain crimes...so how are parents decision on what punishment for what wrongdoings are monitored?
Or should kids be left completely at their mercy no matter how unreasonable the punishment they deal out be?


You say you experienced corporal punishment well I experienced and still experience physical abuse...being beaten up for no specific reason at all except that I exist. Would anyone have been willing to help me stop it? No, cuz it's nothing to do with them cuz it's the parents right to discipline their kids and why would they want to get mixed up in it?

As long as people favor corporal punishment they also open the door to people who justify abuse with it.

Therefore if one doesn't find another way than whipping it to teach one's kid right from wrong one is a very sad parent.

lyhom
August 31st, 2016, 11:17 PM
lmao I love how most people who I see try and defend corporal punishment here always use their anecdotes of "I was spanked and I turned out okay, therefore the problems aren't that bad" lmao

anyways whether it's abusive or not I find it a useless addition to another punishment at best, and flagrantly ineffective at worst

honestly I don't see what spanking does that a good lecture, grounding, or temporary taking away of privileges wouldn't do as well or better

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 12:05 AM
Heyyy guys!! This isn't going to be a long OP because it is 4am and Jack needs sleep :P

What is your opinions on corporal punishment?

I think it is abuse and does more harm then good :)

Corporal punishment is needed to correct misbehaving children.

Of course, the majority on this forum would disagree, for rather obvious reasons.

ethan-s
September 1st, 2016, 07:25 AM
Of course, the majority on this forum would disagree, for rather obvious reasons.
Lol:metal:
Of course you wouldn't believe anyone if they told you that you are secretly traumatised cuz the way you were brought up brainwashed you into thinking this kind of parenting is right and justified.
So from pro corporal punishment people you always get the same standardised answer why this form of punishment is good and not harmful. How it has worked for them and ah I'm to lazy to repeat it all...sounds like being drilled in with the punishment doesn't it?

I honestly have no idea whether beating kids works or not I have never seen statistics that proved it or not. And whether it might leave a kid traumatised or whatever greatly depends on how the punishment is dealt out I guess.

Nevertheless where do you draw the line between between punishment and abuse?
In what cases would parents go too far?
How should it be regulated...I mean there are certain laws for certain crimes...so how are parents decision on what punishment for what wrongdoings are monitored?
Or should kids be left completely at their mercy no matter how unreasonable the punishment they deal out be?


You say you experienced corporal punishment well I experienced and still experience physical abuse...being beaten up for no specific reason at all except that I exist. Would anyone have been willing to help me stop it? No, cuz it's nothing to do with them cuz it's the parents right to discipline their kids and why would they want to get mixed up in it?

As long as people favor corporal punishment they also open the door to people who justify abuse with it.

Therefore if one doesn't find another way than whipping it to teach one's kid right from wrong one is a very sad parent.
What do you mean 'regulated?' Are you going to regulate what people do in their own home and how people bring up their kids?
I'm fine with it, physical punishment often work much better than whatever parents are doing these days. I know that from experience.

I have experienced corporal punishment by the way. For years it was typical for a whipping if I did wrong. And you know what that taught me? That the consequences for doing wrong are harsh, and that has helped me considerably through life. You actually learn to respect authority and that doing wrong in the real world will not just result in a talking to and being let free.
I hold no ill feelings towards my parents for it, and would probably do the same if I have children. I feel it has shaped me towards the better, but it is also something I believe you can't understand until you experience it. You could say I'm secretly mentally traumatized or something like that, but I wouldn't believe you.
I'm with you on this.


Now, the obvious question: where do you draw the line between discipline and abuse? Personally, I was only spanked for direct disobedience, so that is the standard I will use. Now, if someone beats their kid out of anger or just 'cause, that's ridiculous. Stop it.

Voice_Of_Unreason
September 1st, 2016, 10:52 AM
peanut I believe that corporal punishment is justified if the child actually deserves it. Beating children for losing a penny or simply because you are bored is in no way legally corporal punishment. That is the way most laws see it as well. If you feel that you are being unfairly abused, then call social services. Corporal punishment is not child abuse, and if you are experiencing child abuse then I suggest you get help.

I could say those who oppose corporal punishment are brainwashed to believe corporal punishment is child abuse, so lets stop with the claims of brainwashing children.

Flapjack
September 1st, 2016, 11:40 AM
Corporal punishment is needed to correct misbehaving children.

Of course, the majority on this forum would disagree, for rather obvious reasons.
I'm fine with it, physical punishment often work much better than whatever parents are doing these days. I know that from experience.

I have experienced corporal punishment by the way. For years it was typical for a whipping if I did wrong. And you know what that taught me? That the consequences for doing wrong are harsh, and that has helped me considerably through life. You actually learn to respect authority and that doing wrong in the real world will not just result in a talking to and being let free.
I hold no ill feelings towards my parents for it, and would probably do the same if I have children. I feel it has shaped me towards the better, but it is also something I believe you can't understand until you experience it. You could say I'm secretly mentally traumatized or something like that, but I wouldn't believe you.
I used to think the exact way you do now xD For coursework for my English GCSE I had to write an essay about whether or not I supported corporal punishment and why! Me and like 3 other kids in the class were in favor of it but when I went away to do research on it I actually found there was very little evidence supporting corporal punishment and loads opposed. I will link some now :)

The first source I would say is most worth a read :)

Source 1 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0ahUKEwinvYPlzO7OAhWICMAKHZvOCCo4ChAWCCowAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk%2Fthe-case-for-reform%2Feffects-of-corporal-punishment.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF_E80GFmTWPmSKwxL8rA1X70j0ew&sig2=qnwuvl71486xTw4ux3M5hA&bvm=bv.131669213,d.ZGg)
Source 2 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/spanking-is-wrong_b_1659964.html)
Source 3 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/adrian-peterson-corporal-punishment-science_n_5831962.html)
Source 4 (http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx)
Source 5 (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/great-kids-great-parents/201404/why-physical-punishment-does-not-work)

I could say those who oppose corporal punishment are brainwashed to believe corporal punishment is child abuse, so lets stop with the claims of brainwashing children.
I agree with you, I doubt you was traumatised and I doubt you were brainwashed into believing it is right. If it had a positive effect on you, it makes sense for you to think well of it however I do believe there are more harmed from it then it helps :)


Children who experience corporal punishment from their parents are more likely to be aggressive towards their parents, as confirmed by a US study of 1,023 couples with a child aged between three and 17. It found that 40% of the mothers who used corporal punishment three or more times in the past year had been hit by their child in that year and 30% who had used corporal punishment once or twice had been hit, compared to only 13% who did not use it at all.35~From the first source

Vlerchan
September 1st, 2016, 11:49 AM
From Flapjack's first source:

The evidence that corporal punishment is harmful to children, adults and societies is overwhelming – the more than 150 studies included in this review show associations between corporal punishment and a wide range of negative outcomes, while no studies have found evidence of any benefits. Corporal punishment causes direct physical harm to children and impacts negatively in the short- and long-term on their mental and physical health, education and cognitive development. Far from teaching children how to behave, it impairs moral internalisation, increases antisocial behaviour and damages family relationships. It increases aggression in children, is linked to intimate partner violence and inequitable gender attitudes and increases the likelihood of perpetrating and experiencing violence as an adult. Respect for children’s rights to protection, health, development and education requires that all corporal punishment of children be prohibited in law and eliminated in practice.

This debate shouldn't exist.

Dalcourt
September 1st, 2016, 03:49 PM
ethan-s I mean like in our law system the punishment must somehow fit the crime. And as you said yourself where to draw the line between punishment and abuse?
With allowing corporal punishment the child is completely at the mercy of the parents who can freely decide what they would find okay to do with the child with nobody setting any limits on it.
There are regulations and restrictions on how to treat a criminal but not on how to treat your kid if it misbehaves. I'm not sure if this is okay.

PlasmaHam why would social services or whoever I compain to believe me that it's an unfair treatment if my father could claim he has the right to punish his child?
Society esp. when we lived in rural areas of the deep South tends to justify abuse with the parents biblical right to corporal punishment so you couldn't expect much sympathy from anyone.
I mean it's not really about me here cuz I wouldn't report it anyway but I feel this attitude of society towards corporal punishment makes it hard for others who would really try to escape such abusive situations...and would also only get a quote from the Bible from their teacher or neighbor instead of any help.

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 05:03 PM
ethan-s I mean like in our law system the punishment must somehow fit the crime. And as you said yourself where to draw the line between punishment and abuse?
With allowing corporal punishment the child is completely at the mercy of the parents who can freely decide what they would find okay to do with the child with nobody setting any limits on it.
There are regulations and restrictions on how to treat a criminal but not on how to treat your kid if it misbehaves. I'm not sure if this is okay.

PlasmaHam why would social services or whoever I compain to believe me that it's an unfair treatment if my father could claim he has the right to punish his child?
Society esp. when we lived in rural areas of the deep South tends to justify abuse with the parents biblical right to corporal punishment so you couldn't expect much sympathy from anyone.
I mean it's not really about me here cuz I wouldn't report it anyway but I feel this attitude of society towards corporal punishment makes it hard for others who would really try to escape such abusive situations...and would also only get a quote from the Bible from their teacher or neighbor instead of any help.

I live in the South. No one I know is ok with what people generally think of when you say "beating children". Granted you may be using that phrase equivocally.

Voice_Of_Unreason
September 1st, 2016, 05:56 PM
I live in the South. No one I know is ok with what people generally think of when you say "beating children". Granted you may be using that phrase equivocally.
Yep, no one I know actually promotes or allows child beating. And I live in the rural South. You may think that no one cares, but the real problem is that no one knows.

tom20012016
September 1st, 2016, 06:45 PM
I've been spanked in school and home since i was really young like 6 or 7(im still spanked).Of course it hurts and i would prefer to be grounded instead of the whippings but it also has its positive side, its quick. I dont think my parents have abused me its just an old fashioned thing but it can still be useful

pconnor2001
September 1st, 2016, 07:45 PM
I still get spanked. Hard to imagine any kids that are in favor of being spanked. We do have corporal punishment in our school. But the school doesn't paddle bare.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 08:24 PM
I'm fine with it, physical punishment often work much better than whatever parents are doing these days. I know that from experience.

I have experienced corporal punishment by the way. For years it was typical for a whipping if I did wrong. And you know what that taught me? That the consequences for doing wrong are harsh, and that has helped me considerably through life. You actually learn to respect authority and that doing wrong in the real world will not just result in a talking to and being let free.
I hold no ill feelings towards my parents for it, and would probably do the same if I have children. I feel it has shaped me towards the better, but it is also something I believe you can't understand until you experience it. You could say I'm secretly mentally traumatized or something like that, but I wouldn't believe you.

(I'm not intending to offend anyone here, that's not my intention here.)

What you've said goes with what I am going to say.

( ethan-s ) ( Arkansasguy )

What I see is that you've learned what things are okay to do and what things are not okay to do, through what effectively directly hurts because certain people said and made it so.

It's an easier way of reinforcing messages to make people learn this and that, and it's much less efficient. This is because that instead of even attempting a reasoned conversation between the authority figure and the child (here). The authority figure is just hurting the child so that the child asks no questions, and the child doesn't see need to think about the 'why?' part to anything more than that it just is painful and it should be avoided because someone said so.

- - - - - - - -

Why are certain actions not okay in situation X? With corporal punishment, it's because "BAM! it will hurt because this guy says and makes it so, that's why" and end of story. You don't get to invest into more reasoning further afield than if a certain action will earn you some basic unpleasant pain; it's all reasoned in the very short-term / present moment, not to much more than that. The reasoning sees 'action - person hurts me which is of course bad', so it is quickly inferred that the action is just bad because it will make me feel bad when the person knows the action was done.

...instead of...

Why are certain actions not okay in situation X? "Because if I do these actions in situation X, certain events A will happen that will make situation Y, which will make me and/or other people be in a worse frame of mind and/or body" or something along these lines. The reasoning sees 'action - stuff happens - bad event', with then retroactively inferring that the action was bad.

You're actually encouraged to think to an appreciable amount on stuff that is beyond the scope of "will it physically hurt me now/soon?". Sure, physical pain will be experienced by everyone in certain situations where they do the wrong thing, but at least you are learning it by your own accord, and you know directly what stuff you did caused this pain to happen. The pain wasn't inflicted by an authority figure who's hovering above the causal chain of the perceived wrong actions you've done.

With corporal punishment, all that's happening is a faster and shallower fix by learning that certain actions will lead to a certain person whacking you because they said the action was wrong, with that person's mind being the only causal link between your alleged wrong action and the wrong effect you experience as a result. You learn that some stuff is bad because someone said so. It's metaphorically short-sighted in being 'nearer to self' and narrower in range for associative learning, at the least, 'more judged by me by another'.

Without corporal punishment, you more slowly but with greater depth learn that doing certain actions will yield certain mentally and/or physically painful events, this causal chain being started by you and with you seeing more of it unfold before you. You learn more directly why the bad effect happened, and so you associate the whole chain with the action you did to then see that your action was bad. You learn that some stuff is bad because you saw it do certain bad things. It's metaphorically normal-sighted in not having the associative learning (at least) being skewed toward 'nearer to self', and narrower ranges in life, 'more judged for me by myself'.

- - - - - - - -

So that's why I don't go for corporal punishment, because with one route people can get into this relatively faithful trust relationship with certain authority figures, rather than people getting into a relatively independently framed sense of right and wrong by how you do and feel stuff directly in the physical sandbox that is the world we see. Corporal punishment also inclines you to think in a way that charts the world and its events in simpler and larger blocks of stuff, which can and does lead to a lot of generalisation, rather than the more complex and finer-detail-noticed world with its smaller more fluid terms of stuff in it, which can lead to generalisation anyway but with a much lesser risk and at a smaller degree.

People aren't relying on another person directly for their own sense of right and wrong, and they consequently are not assuming that the answers for stuff in life are generally to be found in / founded by the perspectives of certain other people, more than in one's own thinking processes.

The other route people with corporal punishment get into is this growing sense of fear out of certain authority figures. Everyone is uniquely sensitive to certain things more than other things, and if being hit is especially not your thing, you're only going to learn not to do certain things because you know it will spike your anxiety/fear/hatred levels again. Abuse therefore happens, and with certain predispositions (e.g. ASD) it's even more of a significant risk. This alone is enough for me to oppose this punishment.


Note that I'm taking about corporal punishment when its usage is anything more than seldom, and that its personal effects compared to its absence are not as a necessity but as a strong trend. Children are evidently not as objectively rational and ordered as humans relative to adults, but they're not totally irrational beings that need to be given simplistic learning cues. I'm not for the total absence of corporal punishment, I am for its use in situations strictly limited to very bad actions done by the child.

Lastly, I wouldn't count slapping to get a child's attention out of frustration corporal punishment, if it's at most occasional, because what's being done here is to last-resort get the attention of a child, rather than teach the child a lesson.

Also seconding Vlerchan for his post.

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 08:35 PM
(I'm not intending to offend anyone here, that's not my intention here.)

What you've said goes with what I am going to say.

( ethan-s ) ( Arkansasguy )

What I see is that you've learned what things are okay to do and what things are not okay to do, through what effectively directly hurts because certain people said and made it so.

It's an easier way of reinforcing messages to make people learn this and that, and it's much less efficient. This is because that instead of even attempting a reasoned conversation between the authority figure and the child (here). The authority figure is just hurting the child so that the child asks no questions, and the child doesn't see need to think about the 'why?' part to anything more than that it just is painful and it should be avoided because someone said so.

Why are certain actions not okay in situation X? With corporal punishment, it's because "BAM! it will hurt because this guy says and makes it so, that's why" and end of story. You don't get to invest into more reasoning further afield than if a certain action will earn you some basic unpleasant pain; it's all reasoned in the very short-term / present moment, not to much more than that. The reasoning sees 'action - person hurts me which is of course bad', so it is quickly inferred that the action is just bad because it will make me feel bad when the person knows the action was done.

...instead of...

Why are certain actions not okay in situation X? "Because if I do these actions in situation X, certain events A will happen that will make situation Y, which will make me and/or other people be in a worse frame of mind and/or body" or something along these lines. The reasoning sees 'action - stuff happens - bad event', with then retroactively inferring that the action was bad.

You're actually encouraged to think to an appreciable amount on stuff that is beyond the scope of "will it physically hurt me now/soon?". Sure, physical pain will be experienced by everyone in certain situations where they do the wrong thing, but at least you are learning it by your own accord, and you know directly what stuff you did caused this pain to happen. The pain wasn't inflicted by an authority figure who's hovering above the causal chain of the perceived wrong actions you've done.

With corporal punishment, all that's happening is a faster and shallower fix by learning that certain actions will lead to a certain person whacking you because they said the action was wrong, with that person's mind being the only causal link between your alleged wrong action and the wrong effect you experience as a result. You learn that some stuff is bad because someone said so. It's metaphorically short-sighted in being 'nearer to self' and narrower in range for associative learning, at the least.

Without corporal punishment, you more slowly but with greater depth learn that doing certain actions will yield certain mentally and/or physically painful events, this causal chain being started by you and with you seeing more of it unfold before you. You learn more directly why the bad effect happened, and so you associate the whole chain with the action you did to then see that your action was bad. You learn that some stuff is bad because you saw it do certain bad things. It's metaphorically normal-sighted in not having the associative learning (at least) being skewed toward 'nearer to self' and narrower ranges in life.

So that's why I don't go for corporal punishment, because with one route people can get into this relatively faithful trust relationship with certain authority figures, rather than people getting into a relatively independently framed sense of right and wrong by how you do and feel stuff directly in the physical sandbox that is the world we see.

People aren't relying on another person directly for their own sense of right and wrong, and they consequently are not assuming that the answers for stuff in life are generally to be found in the perspectives of certain other people, more than in one's own thinking processes.


The other route people with corporal punishment get into is this growing sense of fear out of certain authority figures. Everyone is uniquely sensitive to certain things more than other things, and if being hit is not your thing, you're only going to learn not to do certain things because you know it will spike your anxiety/fear/hatred levels again. Abuse can therefore happen, and with certain predispositions (e.g. ASD) it's even more of a significant risk.

Note that I'm taking about corporal punishment when it's usage is anything more than seldom; children are evidently not objectively rational and calm humans relative to adults, but they're not totally irrational beings that need to be given simplistic learning cues. I'm not for the total absence of corporal punishment, I am for its use in situations limited to very bad actions done by the child.

Also, I wouldn't count slapping to get a child's attention out of frustration corporal punishment, if it's at most occasional, because what's being done here is to last-resort get the attention of a child, rather than teach the child a lesson.

Who says that punishment and rational discussion are mutually exclusive? That's a very blatant false dilemma, and you could use the same argument against any type of punishment.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 08:44 PM
Who says that punishment and rational discussion are mutually exclusive? That's a very blatant false dilemma, and you could use the same argument against any type of punishment.

By rational discussion, I mean a discussion that doesn't involve corporal punishment within the reasoning being set in it. Nesting this punishment as reasoning within 'rational discussion' is why I see that discussion as needing inverted commas.

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 08:51 PM
By rational discussion, I mean a discussion that doesn't involve corporal punishment within the reasoning being set in it. Nesting this punishment as reasoning within 'rational discussion' is why I see that discussion as needing inverted commas.

By rational discussion, I mean a discussion that doesn't involve grounding within the reasoning being set in it. Nesting this punishment as reasoning within 'rational discussion' is why I see that discussion as needing inverted commas.

This false dilemma works just as well as yours. After all, if you ground kids all you're teaching them is that what they did is wrong because it'll lead to you restricting them.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 08:59 PM
This false dilemma works just as well as yours. After all, if you ground kids all you're teaching them is that what they did is wrong because it'll lead to you restricting them.

I did not say that rational discussion was the only way to teach children what is right and wrong, because you can't use only that to do so. Children, especially younger children, can't think enough to comprehend or care about the discussion you may like, so you can't use that to allow them to learn.

So, you do need to use the shorter-scale 'this action will lead a person setting a bad situation for me' reasoning on the children. When they ask 'why this?' enough times and it becomes apparent that they want better reasons than that certain actions will ground them, then you can try out the rational discussion.

Yes, you're doing an authority-figure-measured associative learning cue on what's wrong for them, which doesn't do much for giving proper logical reasoning on why, but it is necessary when the children aren't able to meet you halfway for the reasoning.

Grounding is way better than corporal punishment already though, because the risk of abusing / unnecessarily harming them is much smaller.

Dalcourt
September 1st, 2016, 10:32 PM
Arkansasguy, PlasmaHam well good for you two then I can only speak from personal experience and experience might differ of course. I was born in the South too and have lived in several places there since.
And I have talked to tons of people throughout my life here so from my personal statistic in rural Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana people tend to justify child beating with the "spare the rod..." quotation.
Even members of my immediate family...

Of course not everyone is the same but it's a view deeply rooted and makes it more difficult for a victim to speak up. Since the victim has learnt that the way parents use violence is socially accepted in many ways.

As I said it's not about my seeking help or wanting anything from anyone. I am not compaining about anything personal...It's just how I tried to help others reporting such things and it took me even work to make themselves realise that what happens to them is wrong.

Would you guys walk up to some Momma who is smacking her crying 5 year old at Walmart? What would she and others around tell ya if you question her parental rights to spank her kid?
What should the 5 year old learn from this? Shut up and never complain cuz your Momma is right?
Not all parents who smack her kids are real abusers of course...but social acceptance of corporal punishment makes it dangerously easy for them to become abusers.

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 10:39 PM
Arkansasguy, PlasmaHam well good for you two then I can only speak from personal experience and experience might differ of course. I was born in the South too and have lived in several places there since.
And I have talked to tons of people throughout my life here so from my personal statistic in rural Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana people tend to justify child beating with the "spare the rod..." quotation.
Even members of my immediate family...

Of course not everyone is the same but it's a view deeply rooted and makes it more difficult for a victim to speak up. Since the victim has learnt that the way parents use violence is socially accepted in many ways.

As I said it's not about my seeking help or wanting anything from anyone. I am not compaining about anything personal...It's just how I tried to help others reporting such things and it took me even work to make themselves realise that what happens to them is wrong.

Would you guys walk up to some Momma who is smacking her crying 5 year old at Walmart? What would she and others around tell ya if you question her parental rights to spank her kid?
What should the 5 year old learn from this? Shut up and never complain cuz your Momma is right?
Not all parents who smack her kids are real abusers of course...but social acceptance of corporal punishment makes it dangerously easy for them to become abusers.

Just to be clear, what do you mean when you say your father beats you? From other stuff you've said, I suspect that you're equivocating, so if like this clarified if it's to be used as a point of discussion.

And no, I wouldn't interfere with someone spanking their kid in Walmart. Why would I?

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 10:40 PM
I did not say that rational discussion was the only way to teach children what is right and wrong, because you can't use only that to do so. Children, especially younger children, can't think enough to comprehend or care about the discussion you may like, so you can't use that to allow them to learn.

So, you do need to use the shorter-scale 'this action will lead a person setting a bad situation for me' reasoning on the children. When they ask 'why this?' enough times and it becomes apparent that they want better reasons than that certain actions will ground them, then you can try out the rational discussion.

Yes, you're doing an authority-figure-measured associative learning cue on what's wrong for them, which doesn't do much for giving proper logical reasoning on why, but it is necessary when the children aren't able to meet you halfway for the reasoning.

Grounding is way better than corporal punishment already though, because the risk of abusing / unnecessarily harming them is much smaller.

If you're not an abuser then you have basically zero chance of abusing.

So just to be clear, the "you need to reason with them" argument was a red herring?

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 10:50 PM
If you're not an abuser then you have basically zero chance of abusing.

Everyone has capacity for a great variety of things, and abuse is something I see to be common to almost all of us, though it goes strongly with psychological tendencies yes.

Not having done a certain thing and/or not doing that thing now, doesn't mean that it won't be done in the future.

Anyway, I don't see how this takes anything away from people who already do abuse.



So just to be clear, the "you need to reason with them" argument was a red herring?

I don't see how anything I said was poorly implying that the "you need to reason with them" part was distracting away from something else, such that you needed to clarify that I actually meant that.

Arkansasguy
September 1st, 2016, 10:58 PM
Everyone has capacity for a great variety of things, and abuse is something I see to be common to almost all of us, though it goes strongly with psychological tendencies yes.

Not having done a certain thing and/or not doing that thing now, doesn't mean that it won't be done in the future.

Anyway, I don't see how this takes anything away from people who already do abuse.

I find that psychoanalysis usually tends to reveal more about the person doing the psychoanalysis get than it does about the subject of it. Anyway, people have free will, if they choose to abuse their kids that has nothing to do with those who don't choose to abuse their kids. And by definition, abusers are already law-breakers, another law won't stop them.

Dalcourt
September 1st, 2016, 11:01 PM
Just to be clear, what do you mean when you say your father beats you? From other stuff you've said, I suspect that you're equivocating, so if like this clarified if it's to be used as a point of discussion.

And no, I wouldn't interfere with someone spanking their kid in Walmart. Why would I?

I can tell you it entirely does not matter here what happens to me since it has nothing to do with corporal punishment per se. My father suffers from mental health and drug problems that lead to irrational fits of aggression. This could lead from smacking you in the head to threatening you with a gun or break bones in your body.
It isn't connected to anything I say or do really...just coming home and slamming a door may tick him off.

And of course you wouldn't interfere with anyone spanking their kid and it might be okay not to do so...but you wouldn't know what this person does to the kid at home. So maybe with silently acknowledge her actions you justify severe abuse at home behind closed door. And since nobody speaks up for it or decleares what happens is wrong how would the kid know what it has to endure or when to seek help?
So I'm just saying that accepting corporal punishment is dangerous cuz it's hard where to draw the line.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 11:06 PM
I find that psychoanalysis usually tends to reveal more about the person doing the psychoanalysis get than it does about the subject of it.

So psychology is balderdash etc etc, if I remember correctly from you.


Anyway, people have free will, if they choose to abuse their kids that has nothing to do with those who don't choose to abuse their kids. And by definition, abusers are already law-breakers, another law won't stop them.

I don't get what you mean about free will absolving people of responsibility to look out for abusing parents.

Another law, or the extended enforcement of another, would increase the ability and likelihood of catching child abusers. Not getting your stance that knowing absolute success won't work means that there's no point for trying at partial success.

Dalcourt
September 2nd, 2016, 01:08 AM
Another law, or the extended enforcement of another, would increase the ability and likelihood of catching child abusers. Not getting your stance that knowing absolute success won't work means that there's no point for trying at partial success.

Off topic:
Since no law can really grant absolute suceess in catching and punishing everyone who does a certain wrong, couldn't we deduct from this notion that we don't need laws at all? Just saying.

Arkansasguy
September 2nd, 2016, 01:13 AM
I can tell you it entirely does not matter here what happens to me since it has nothing to do with corporal punishment per se. My father suffers from mental health and drug problems that lead to irrational fits of aggression. This could lead from smacking you in the head to threatening you with a gun or break bones in your body.
It isn't connected to anything I say or do really...just coming home and slamming a door may tick him off.

And of course you wouldn't interfere with anyone spanking their kid and it might be okay not to do so...but you wouldn't know what this person does to the kid at home. So maybe with silently acknowledge her actions you justify severe abuse at home behind closed door. And since nobody speaks up for it or decleares what happens is wrong how would the kid know what it has to endure or when to seek help?
So I'm just saying that accepting corporal punishment is dangerous cuz it's hard where to draw the line.

I'm quite certain there isn't anywhere in the country where any nontrivial number of people approve of parents breaking their kid's bones or threatening to shoot them. I'd advise you to call the police the next time that happens.

So psychology is balderdash etc etc, if I remember correctly from you.




I don't get what you mean about free will absolving people of responsibility to look out for abusing parents.

Another law, or the extended enforcement of another, would increase the ability and likelihood of catching child abusers. Not getting your stance that knowing absolute success won't work means that there's no point for trying at partial success.

It's not that hard to understand. The fact that Sam abuses his kid, doesn't mean that it's wrong for Bob to spank his kid, because Bob's behavior isn't governed by a probability distribution.

You know, every person who has ever committed child abuse has done so while breathing. Clearly then we should outlaw breathing, since it would allow us to catch more abusers.

Dalcourt
September 2nd, 2016, 03:12 AM
I'm quite certain there isn't anywhere in the country where any nontrivial number of people approve of parents breaking their kid's bones or threatening to shoot them. I'd advise you to call the police the next time that happens.



It's hard to draw the line and I feel there are double standards in some ways.

I mean people keep telling me I should report a man who partially can't help what he does due to mental problems and traumatising experiences throughout his own childhood to the cops. I was told repeatedly that I'm crazy letting him act the way he does.

The same people however act borderline sexually abusive by spanking their own teenage kids bare butts or do other freakish stuff like e.g. scalding their toddlers legs with hot water from the shower for "misbehaving" during church services....
They all hurt and maybe to some extend traumatise their own flesh and blood under the cloak of their right to perform corporal punishment and they justify their actions with the Bible.

Yet I should call someone I feel much more loved by then all those kids do by their strict parents a criminal for what he does and make him go to jail?
For me this is really hard to understand.

Arkansasguy
September 2nd, 2016, 03:21 AM
It's hard to draw the line and I feel there are double standards in some ways.

I mean people keep telling me I should report a man who partially can't help what he does due to mental problems and traumatising experiences throughout his own childhood to the cops. I was told repeatedly that I'm crazy letting him act the way he does.

The same people however act borderline sexually abusive by spanking their own teenage kids bare butts or do other freakish stuff like e.g. scalding their toddlers legs with hot water from the shower for "misbehaving" during church services....
They all hurt and maybe to some extend traumatise their own flesh and blood under the cloak of their right to perform corporal punishment and they justify their actions with the Bible.

Yet I should call someone I feel much more loved by then all those kids do by their strict parents a criminal for what he does and make him go to jail?
For me this is really hard to understand.

Ok, so you know for a fact then that people differentiate between legitimate corporal punishment and what your father does. So that point was entirely dishonest.

And yes, his culpability is beside the point of whether you should act to get yourself out of that situation.

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 04:57 AM
I find that psychoanalysis usually tends to reveal more about the person doing the psychoanalysis get than it does about the subject of it. Anyway, people have free will, if they choose to abuse their kids that has nothing to do with those who don't choose to abuse their kids. And by definition, abusers are already law-breakers, another law won't stop them.
But the law will stop many of the nasty idiots that are stuck in another century and think corporal punishment is okay!

You should look at these sources and educate yourself.
The first source I would say is most worth a read :)

Source 1 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0ahUKEwinvYPlzO7OAhWICMAKHZvOCCo4ChAWCCowAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk%2Fthe-case-for-reform%2Feffects-of-corporal-punishment.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF_E80GFmTWPmSKwxL8rA1X70j0ew&sig2=qnwuvl71486xTw4ux3M5hA&bvm=bv.131669213,d.ZGg)
Source 2 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/spanking-is-wrong_b_1659964.html)
Source 3 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/adrian-peterson-corporal-punishment-science_n_5831962.html)
Source 4 (http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx)
Source 5 (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/great-kids-great-parents/201404/why-physical-punishment-does-not-work)

Children who experience corporal punishment from their parents are more likely to be aggressive towards their parents, as confirmed by a US study of 1,023 couples with a child aged between three and 17. It found that 40% of the mothers who used corporal punishment three or more times in the past year had been hit by their child in that year and 30% who had used corporal punishment once or twice had been hit, compared to only 13% who did not use it at all.35~From the first source

Arkansasguy
September 2nd, 2016, 05:17 AM
But the law will stop many of the nasty idiots that are stuck in another century and think corporal punishment is okay!

You should look at these sources and educate yourself.
The first source I would say is most worth a read :)

Source 1 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0ahUKEwinvYPlzO7OAhWICMAKHZvOCCo4ChAWCCowAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk%2Fthe-case-for-reform%2Feffects-of-corporal-punishment.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF_E80GFmTWPmSKwxL8rA1X70j0ew&sig2=qnwuvl71486xTw4ux3M5hA&bvm=bv.131669213,d.ZGg)
Source 2 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-belkin/spanking-is-wrong_b_1659964.html)
Source 3 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/adrian-peterson-corporal-punishment-science_n_5831962.html)
Source 4 (http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx)
Source 5 (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/great-kids-great-parents/201404/why-physical-punishment-does-not-work)

~From the first source

Those sources tell me that they were written by radicals who oppose parental authority.

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 05:20 AM
Those sources tell me that they were written by radicals who oppose parental authority.
*facepalm*
Yessss scholars and doctors researching the effects is so radical??
Have you even looked at the first source?

Can you provide some sources pro corporal punishment... I know from personal experience that there aren't many.

You are stuck in another century buddy.

Vlerchan
September 2nd, 2016, 05:41 AM
Those sources tell me that they were written by radicals who oppose parental authority.
The opposition is to a certain expression of parental authority. Being against corporal punishment in itself isn't radical.

Though I presume your opinion is that - irrespective - all academic studies in child-rearing are guided by a set of wicked priors.

Arkansasguy
September 2nd, 2016, 06:11 AM
*facepalm*
Yessss scholars and doctors researching the effects is so radical??
Have you even looked at the first source?

Can you provide some sources pro corporal punishment... I know from personal experience that there aren't many.

You are stuck in another century buddy.

I can provide you with the common experience of humans in every time and place outside of the modern west.

And yes I looked at the first source. Reading into it didn't dissuade me of their ideological biases being obvious.

Also, the fact that someone thought "mothers who have a child age three through seventeen that they've spanked in the last year" was a statistically valid sample, shows exactly why sociology isn't a real science.

The opposition is to a certain expression of parental authority. Being against corporal punishment in itself isn't radical.

Though I presume your opinion is that - irrespective - all academic studies in child-rearing are guided by a set of wicked priors.

Obviously. I except that you don't consider it wicked, but do you really doubt that the overwhelming majority of self-proclaimed child-rearing experts are ideologically opposed to corporal punishment?

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 06:23 AM
I can provide you with the common experience of humans in every time and place outside of the modern west.
Sooo let me get this straight.... the against corporal punishment side has overwhelming scientific and statistical evidence on its side and the pro camp has nothing? You can't claim to have every common experience when I have read so much about kids traumatised and having issues for life because of it. It is also so clear it makes kids more aggressive.


And yes I looked at the first source. Reading into it didn't dissuade me of their ideological biases being obvious.

How much did you read?

Also, the fact that someone thought "mothers who have a child age three through seventeen that they've spanked in the last year" was a statistically valid sample, shows exactly why sociology isn't a real science.
How does that show sociology isn't a real science? xD What you are basically saying is 'anything that disagrees with me is wrong'. Especially funny when the overwhelming majority of research disagrees with you.

Oh and sociology is a branch of biology and a real science:P

In conclusion, you are stuck in the past, have no evidence to back up your claims and all evidence that disagrees with you (there is a lot) is wrong.

______________________________________
What do you guys think about people hiding behind religion for corporal punishment/ child abuse?

JIuKN-4oYrQ

Arkansasguy
September 2nd, 2016, 07:38 AM
Sooo let me get this straight.... the against corporal punishment side has overwhelming scientific and statistical evidence on its side and the pro camp has nothing? You can't claim to have every common experience when I have read so much about kids traumatised and having issues for life because of it. It is also so clear it makes kids more aggressive.


How much did you read?

How does that show sociology isn't a real science? xD What you are basically saying is 'anything that disagrees with me is wrong'. Especially funny when the overwhelming majority of research disagrees with you.

Oh and sociology is a branch of biology and a real science:P

In conclusion, you are stuck in the past, have no evidence to back up your claims and all evidence that disagrees with you (there is a lot) is wrong.

______________________________________
What do you guys think about people hiding behind religion for corporal punishment/ child abuse?

JIuKN-4oYrQ

The Young Turks are trolls. They're not even funny trolls, it's just retardation without any redeeming value. Indeed, not only are they not even funny, they're not even enraging trolls, their brand of idiocy is so far removed from reality that it's not even possible to be upset with them, except perhaps in the "I can't believe I just wasted five minutes on this crap" sense.

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 08:31 AM
The Young Turks are trolls. They're not even funny trolls, it's just retardation without any redeeming value. Indeed, not only are they not even funny, they're not even enraging trolls, their brand of idiocy is so far removed from reality that it's not even possible to be upset with them, except perhaps in the "I can't believe I just wasted five minutes on this crap" sense.
Of course you didn't respond:P

I can provide you with the common experience of humans in every time and place outside of the modern west.
Sooo let me get this straight.... the against corporal punishment side has overwhelming scientific and statistical evidence on its side and the pro camp has nothing? You can't claim to have every common experience when I have read so much about kids traumatised and having issues for life because of it. It is also so clear it makes kids more aggressive.


And yes I looked at the first source. Reading into it didn't dissuade me of their ideological biases being obvious.

How much did you read?

Also, the fact that someone thought "mothers who have a child age three through seventeen that they've spanked in the last year" was a statistically valid sample, shows exactly why sociology isn't a real science.
How does that show sociology isn't a real science? xD What you are basically saying is 'anything that disagrees with me is wrong'. Especially funny when the overwhelming majority of research disagrees with you.

Oh and sociology is a branch of biology and a real science:tongue:

In conclusion, you are stuck in the past, have no evidence to back up your claims and all evidence that disagrees with you (there is a lot) is wrong.


As for TYT being trolls, they are not trolls xD Just because some disagrees with you, does not make them a troll xD Sooo sociology isn't a real science, scientists are bias and TYT are trolls.

You are the stereotypical 'if it disagrees with me, its wrong' ROTWer.

Vlerchan
September 2nd, 2016, 08:57 AM
[...] but do you really doubt that the overwhelming majority of self-proclaimed child-rearing experts are ideologically opposed to corporal punishment?
It might be the case that there is overwhelming bias against corporal punishment. But the meta-analysis that Flapjack linked to held comprehensive rejection across each price of the literature for corporal punishment. The likelihood is that some of the research is poor or biased but rejecting the entire literature on the back of those priors makes you no better than the hacks that populate the field.

Oh and sociology is a branch of biology and a real science
It's not a branch of the biological sciences.

You also haven't read a lot of social science research if you believe that sociologists produce consistent good work: Most of it is the wrong side of terrible and isn't scientific at even the basest definitions of the term.

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 09:13 AM
It's not a branch of the biological sciences.

You also haven't read a lot of social science research if you believe that sociologists produce consistent good work: Most of it is the wrong side of terrible and isn't scientific at even the basest definitions of the term.
I would consider it and other social sciences to be buddy and I know sociology and psychology as a whole have sooo much ridiculous crap in it but I still would consider it a science.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200909/social-sciences-are-branches-biology-i

I do believe that review of research paper I linked earlier to be very informative with sections we haven't even talked about yet like 'Impaired cognitive development'.

Do you believe that Arkan guy should be able to just say he dismisses that paper and all other scientific research and move on?

Vlerchan
September 2nd, 2016, 09:47 AM
I would consider it and other social sciences to be buddy[.]
Using the sort of reductionism professed in that article we might as well start referring to ourselves as physicists.

Because if all social processes can be explained with references to biological processes - and the likelihood is that all those can be explained with reference to chemical processes: and those can all be explained with physical processes then what's the difference?

The difference is that the social sciences - at the moment - make limited reference to the behavioural literature and the subject matter is distinct enough that it requires a whole different sort of training. There is no intellectual intersection as there might be between health and education economics.

---

I can also consider sociology a science on back of its aspirations as opposed to its methods.

that review of research paper I linked earlier to be very informative
I agree. Though it is probably worth going through the methods in some of the individual studies.

Do you believe that Arkan guy should be able to just say he dismisses that paper and all other scientific research and move on?
Of course not. Though he is raising an argument.

StoppingTom
September 2nd, 2016, 11:03 AM
I'm speaking anecdotally, but I got the wooden spoon once or twice when I was a real shit, and I'm on good terms with my parents and relatively well adjusted. However, the evidence is there that it ends up doing a lot more harm than good in most cases. I would never have kids, but I can understand giving your kid a smack if you've tried everything else. Being a parent is frustrating sometimes, and it's easy to go "Well I'd NEVER hit my kid!!" until you have one of your own and you lose patience with them for one minute in the 18+ years you have them.

Dalcourt
September 2nd, 2016, 11:49 AM
Ok, so you know for a fact then that people differentiate between legitimate corporal punishment and what your father does. So that point was entirely dishonest.

And yes, his culpability is beside the point of whether you should act to get yourself out of that situation.

It's kinda sad that your only answer is accusing me of being dishonest. Of course with my almost 16 years I can now understand those things and explain them in a lengthy way to others so that they might be able to understand.At least in some cases.
However when I was at Elementary School age the situation was quite different. If I told someone that my daddy was hitting me the answer was that I must have been bad then. And something along the line that he is hitting me to make me a better person.
So this would basically mean you have to endure possible abuse till you are old enough to be able to grasp the differences between punishment and abuse yourself and therefore be able to express yourself in the right way to explain it to others. Great.

So just to let parents have the right to corporal punishment a lot of harm might be done to weak and defenseless children and stricter laws could avoid a great deal of that.

Of course I understand that sometimes a parent might not know another answer than to smack a kid and of course they shouldn't be sent to jail for that.
But since it is so hard to draw the line and a lot of people really go very far with what they consider punishment the current notion most people share on it is deeply faulted.

Arkansasguy
September 2nd, 2016, 12:06 PM
It might be the case that there is overwhelming bias against corporal punishment. But the meta-analysis that Flapjack linked to held comprehensive rejection across each price of the literature for corporal punishment. The likelihood is that some of the research is poor or biased but rejecting the entire literature on the back of those priors makes you no better than the hacks that populate the field.

I disagree in principle with the notion that child rearing is something only experts know how to do. And that general statistical information, even if taken as valid, is relevant to a parent making decisions regarding their particular kid.

In general I'd point out that studies about corporal punishment:

1. Do not establish anything wrt the direction of causation, and
2. Do not consider counterbalancing factors. Even if spanking increases violent tendencies marginally, it's still possible that it prevents other harms.

It's kinda sad that your only answer is accusing me of being dishonest. Of course with my almost 16 years I can now understand those things and explain them in a lengthy way to others so that they might be able to understand.At least in some cases.
However when I was at Elementary School age the situation was quite different. If I told someone that my daddy was hitting me the answer was that I must have been bad then. And something along the line that he is hitting me to make me a better person.
So this would basically mean you have to endure possible abuse till you are old enough to be able to grasp the differences between punishment and abuse yourself and therefore be able to express yourself in the right way to explain it to others. Great.

So just to let parents have the right to corporal punishment a lot of harm might be done to weak and defenseless children and stricter laws could avoid a great deal of that.

Of course I understand that sometimes a parent might not know another answer than to smack a kid and of course they shouldn't be sent to jail for that.
But since it is so hard to draw the line and a lot of people really go very far with what they consider punishment the current notion most people share on it is deeply faulted.

You're proposing then to criminalize something which in itself is right*, because it might provide cover for criminals. Note by the way that the same argument can apply to any exercise of parental authority. If it was made illegal to send kids to their room, that would make it harder for criminals who do things like put their kids in cages to get away with it, for example.

Also, while I'll believe there are parts of the rural south that are as you describe, I'm pretty sure any teacher where I grew up would ask "what do you mean" if a kid told them that their parent was hitting them. With mandated reporter training and what have you, I doubt that your experience is the more common.

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 12:46 PM
I disagree in principle with the notion that child rearing is something only experts know how to do. And that general statistical information, even if taken as valid, is relevant to a parent making decisions regarding their particular kid.

In general I'd point out that studies about corporal punishment:

1. Do not establish anything wrt the direction of causation, and
2. Do not consider counterbalancing factors. Even if spanking increases violent tendencies marginally, it's still possible that it prevents other harms.

“The harmful outcomes associated with physical punishment may actually be due to other factors.”
It has been suggested that the associations between corporal punishment and behaviour problems or aggression in children are due to aggressive children being physically punished more, rather than to physical punishment affecting their behaviour (the “chicken and egg” question). Similarly, it has been suggested that the associations are due to confounding variables – for example, that parents with a higher income are less likely to use physical punishment and more likely to have children with better developmental outcomes. To address these issues, researchers have carried out prospective studies
Source (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0ahUKEwinvYPlzO7OAhWICMAKHZvOCCo4ChAWCCowAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk%2Fthe-case-for-reform%2Feffects-of-corporal-punishment.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF_E80GFmTWPmSKwxL8rA1X70j0ew&sig2=qnwuvl71486xTw4ux3M5hA&bvm=bv.131669213,d.ZGg)

Dalcourt
September 2nd, 2016, 02:26 PM
You're proposing then to criminalize something which in itself is right*, because it might provide cover for criminals. Note by the pway that the same argument can apply to any exercise of parental authority. If it was made illegal to send kids to their room, that would make it harder for criminals who do things like put their kids in cages to get away with it, for example.

Also, while I'll believe there are parts of the rural south that are as you describe, I'm pretty sure any teacher where I grew up would ask "what do you mean" if a kid told them that their parent was hitting them. With mandated reporter training and what have you, I doubt that your experience is the more common.

I'm tired of discussing something with you you obviously cannot understand so let's just agree that we disagree on this subject.
For the teacher thing I could obviously also play the racism card which I wouldn't do cuz honestly I never cared for any reasons other people might have for doing or not doing certain things.

It's not my intention to persuade you or anyone else for that matter to believe that certain things might be different from what they are in your world view.
I have a strong belief in certain things due to my religion and the set of ethics I was taught...it's good for you you were lucky in life and spared certain negative experiences.

Vlerchan
September 2nd, 2016, 03:31 PM
I disagree in principle with the notion that child rearing is something only experts know how to do.
When I refer to the empirical literature I am not claiming that 'child rearing is something only experts know how to do'.

And that general statistical information, even if taken as valid, is relevant to a parent making decisions regarding their particular kid.
If a certain form of disciplining tends to prompt a certain results then we should be wary of using it - at the least - would you not agree?

Do not establish anything wrt the direction of causation, and
But provide clean identifications suggesting that causality exists.

That's much better than what the pro-corporal punishment side is offering.

Do not consider counterbalancing factors. Even if spanking increases violent tendencies marginally, it's still possible that it prevents other harms.
This is just an argument to ignorance. It's possible that it might do some good but unless you're willing to point to this then I don't see the relevance of this hypothetical to the debate.

Flapjack
September 2nd, 2016, 03:52 PM
Arkansasguy I do understand why you support corporal punishment buddy! As I said earlier, I used to! But now I think you are covering your ears and looking away. Rather than looking at the facts and coming to a conclusion based off of that, you have an opinion and then try desperately to prove to yourself that it is true :)

Please step back from your own bias and use some critical thinking :)

candorgen
September 2nd, 2016, 06:33 PM
Off topic:
Since no law can really grant absolute suceess in catching and punishing everyone who does a certain wrong, couldn't we deduct from this notion that we don't need laws at all? Just saying.

Well, no. Powerful pragmatic value would be found even in a certain hypothetical law that was only half-enforced. If a certain entity is doing something you intend, better than if that entity wasn't there, then the entity is worth having.

As I said before, knowing that a certain thing doesn't work with perfect / fully intended efficiency, is a huge non-reason to then think that the certain thing isn't even worth partially working at all. (Sounds pessimistic too in itself.)



It's not that hard to understand. The fact that Sam abuses his kid, doesn't mean that it's wrong for Bob to spank his kid, because Bob's behavior isn't governed by a probability distribution.

I wasn't arguing against general corporal punishment usage through that. My part on coincidence with abuse was one of two ways I was opposing it.



You know, every person who has ever committed child abuse has done so while breathing. Clearly then we should outlaw breathing, since it would allow us to catch more abusers.

Ummm what is this supposed to mean or prove as a point? :confused:


As I said earlier, I used to!)

You used to be for corporal punishment? I wouldn't have guessed (but then again ROTW is a dynamic place so).

Flapjack
September 3rd, 2016, 01:23 AM
You used to be for corporal punishment? I wouldn't have guessed (but then again ROTW is a dynamic place so).
Not in this thread xD A few years ago now I had to talk about it in an essay, I was all for it but when I went away to research the topic I found that it was so obvious corporal punishment is wrong :) Shows the importance of keeping an open mind :P

candorgen
September 5th, 2016, 10:59 AM
Not in this thread xD A few years ago now I had to talk about it in an essay, I was all for it but when I went away to research the topic I found that it was so obvious corporal punishment is wrong :) Shows the importance of keeping an open mind :P

I relate to that, even with 6 months ago for some things that weren't relevant/formed as ideas yet.

ethan-s
September 5th, 2016, 02:39 PM
(I'm not intending to offend anyone here, that's not my intention here.)

What you've said goes with what I am going to say.

( ethan-s ) ( Arkansasguy )

What I see is that you've learned what things are okay to do and what things are not okay to do, through what effectively directly hurts because certain people said and made it so.

It's an easier way of reinforcing messages to make people learn this and that, and it's much less efficient. This is because that instead of even attempting a reasoned conversation between the authority figure and the child (here). The authority figure is just hurting the child so that the child asks no questions, and the child doesn't see need to think about the 'why?' part to anything more than that it just is painful and it should be avoided because someone said so.

- - - - - - - -

Why are certain actions not okay in situation X? With corporal punishment, it's because "BAM! it will hurt because this guy says and makes it so, that's why" and end of story. You don't get to invest into more reasoning further afield than if a certain action will earn you some basic unpleasant pain; it's all reasoned in the very short-term / present moment, not to much more than that. The reasoning sees 'action - person hurts me which is of course bad', so it is quickly inferred that the action is just bad because it will make me feel bad when the person knows the action was done.

...instead of...

Why are certain actions not okay in situation X? "Because if I do these actions in situation X, certain events A will happen that will make situation Y, which will make me and/or other people be in a worse frame of mind and/or body" or something along these lines. The reasoning sees 'action - stuff happens - bad event', with then retroactively inferring that the action was bad.

You're actually encouraged to think to an appreciable amount on stuff that is beyond the scope of "will it physically hurt me now/soon?". Sure, physical pain will be experienced by everyone in certain situations where they do the wrong thing, but at least you are learning it by your own accord, and you know directly what stuff you did caused this pain to happen. The pain wasn't inflicted by an authority figure who's hovering above the causal chain of the perceived wrong actions you've done.

With corporal punishment, all that's happening is a faster and shallower fix by learning that certain actions will lead to a certain person whacking you because they said the action was wrong, with that person's mind being the only causal link between your alleged wrong action and the wrong effect you experience as a result. You learn that some stuff is bad because someone said so. It's metaphorically short-sighted in being 'nearer to self' and narrower in range for associative learning, at the least, 'more judged by me by another'.

Without corporal punishment, you more slowly but with greater depth learn that doing certain actions will yield certain mentally and/or physically painful events, this causal chain being started by you and with you seeing more of it unfold before you. You learn more directly why the bad effect happened, and so you associate the whole chain with the action you did to then see that your action was bad. You learn that some stuff is bad because you saw it do certain bad things. It's metaphorically normal-sighted in not having the associative learning (at least) being skewed toward 'nearer to self', and narrower ranges in life, 'more judged for me by myself'.

- - - - - - - -

So that's why I don't go for corporal punishment, because with one route people can get into this relatively faithful trust relationship with certain authority figures, rather than people getting into a relatively independently framed sense of right and wrong by how you do and feel stuff directly in the physical sandbox that is the world we see. Corporal punishment also inclines you to think in a way that charts the world and its events in simpler and larger blocks of stuff, which can and does lead to a lot of generalisation, rather than the more complex and finer-detail-noticed world with its smaller more fluid terms of stuff in it, which can lead to generalisation anyway but with a much lesser risk and at a smaller degree.

People aren't relying on another person directly for their own sense of right and wrong, and they consequently are not assuming that the answers for stuff in life are generally to be found in / founded by the perspectives of certain other people, more than in one's own thinking processes.

The other route people with corporal punishment get into is this growing sense of fear out of certain authority figures. Everyone is uniquely sensitive to certain things more than other things, and if being hit is especially not your thing, you're only going to learn not to do certain things because you know it will spike your anxiety/fear/hatred levels again. Abuse therefore happens, and with certain predispositions (e.g. ASD) it's even more of a significant risk. This alone is enough for me to oppose this punishment.


Note that I'm taking about corporal punishment when its usage is anything more than seldom, and that its personal effects compared to its absence are not as a necessity but as a strong trend. Children are evidently not as objectively rational and ordered as humans relative to adults, but they're not totally irrational beings that need to be given simplistic learning cues. I'm not for the total absence of corporal punishment, I am for its use in situations strictly limited to very bad actions done by the child.

Lastly, I wouldn't count slapping to get a child's attention out of frustration corporal punishment, if it's at most occasional, because what's being done here is to last-resort get the attention of a child, rather than teach the child a lesson.

Also seconding Vlerchan for his post.
Who said I never asked questions? I was always told, "Ethan, you better stop what your doing or else" and I was also told what I did wrong if a punishment happened.

Dalcourt
September 5th, 2016, 02:43 PM
Not in this thread xD A few years ago now I had to talk about it in an essay, I was all for it but when I went away to research the topic I found that it was so obvious corporal punishment is wrong :) Shows the importance of keeping an open mind :P

Oh yes an open mind is really an important quality to have sadly a lot of people lack this quality.

What I want is to askof people in favor of corporal punishment:
What has a kid to do wrong that justifies corporal punishment...e.g. what would you hurt your kid for?

candorgen
September 5th, 2016, 03:11 PM
Who said I never asked questions? I was always told, "Ethan, you better stop what your doing or else" and I was also told what I did wrong if a punishment happened.

I didn't say that. I meant that it is a trend subconsciously.