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Flapjack
August 30th, 2016, 06:15 AM
Heyyy guys I thought Scientology would be an interesting topic and quite different from our current ones :)

This is basically to debate whether they are good bad, a real religion or not, anything Scientology related.

I think there have definitely been examples of the people in the Church of Scientology manipulating people for money and support however I feel this is no different from any other religion.

People look their stories about a god and a volcano and think it is crazy but I think this is only because it is recent. I think if any of the major religions were founded in the last 100 years people would think they were crazy cults too!!

mattsmith48
August 30th, 2016, 01:06 PM
Scientology is not more or less crazy than any other religion and aren't more or less bad than any other religion.

eric2001
August 30th, 2016, 01:45 PM
This religion is his best science fiction story.

jamie_n5
August 30th, 2016, 02:24 PM
In the last 20 or so years there have been 100's of new religions that have popped up or have been created. They can be connected to or with almost anything imaginable. So I think Scientology is a fine thing to have a religion about.

Dalcourt
August 30th, 2016, 03:16 PM
It's like every other religion or cult never saw anything special in it. Except maybe that it seemed to be a big deal that some celebrities were avid supporters but yeahI never really bothered to read more about it. I wouldn't really know enough about Scientology to disscuss it... I'm just an expert on Catholicism and Voodoo :P

candorgen
August 30th, 2016, 03:24 PM
From what I've heard and seen through documentaries and varying internet routes, I'm especially against Scientology both with its worldview and its practice, more so than with the larger religious organisations in the world that I see as corrupt in one way or another.


I think there have definitely been examples of the people in the Church of Scientology manipulating people for money and support however I feel this is no different from any other religion.

Yes, though I'm not sure of the Catholic / Satanist churches (as examples) having gone to lengths in recent days to physically prevent some 'disliked' people from leaving their premises, etc.


[...] a real religion or not [...]

It seems pretty much 'real' to me, by its support and such; it would help if we had criteria on what makes a religion actually a religion, or only apparently so. That would be worth a thread in itself maybe.

The dianetics idea can... be done without...



[...] anything Scientology related.

I hope that there isn't much related to Scientology, that would be a bigger problem to death with!


In the last 20 or so years there have been 100's of new religions that have popped up or have been created. They can be connected to or with almost anything imaginable. So I think Scientology is a fine thing to have a religion about.

Do you mean that it's fine overall, the effective practice and state funding included?

Babs
August 30th, 2016, 03:49 PM
I think Scientology is really funny.

mattsmith48
August 30th, 2016, 05:36 PM
I think Scientology is really funny.

What do you find funny in scientology?

Babs
August 30th, 2016, 06:15 PM
What do you find funny in scientology?

The concept, history, and L. Ron Hubbard as a character is just funny to me. It's all pretty wacko.

jamie_n5
August 30th, 2016, 08:22 PM
Churches in the USA are not state funded. They are non profit organizations.

Flapjack
August 30th, 2016, 08:22 PM
Churches in the USA are not state funded. They are non profit organizations.
I don't know much about that but in Europe religions are state funded. I do believe in the US they are tax free though.

Do you mean that it's fine overall, the effective practice and state funding included?
No I was meaning I am fine with preaching the crazy stories because I do believe most of the preachers are good people and believe in it however I do not agree with how the Church of Scientology does things, from how they punish members by taking away their kids and putting them in poor daycare conditions to the pseudo Science and them suing anyone that tries to leave and expose them.

I think there is a good case to declare the church a cult and for them not to receive state funding however I would be fine with another Scientology church that doesn't do all the bad stuff receiving funding if that makes sense? It is not the Scientology I don't like, it is the leaders.

mattsmith48
August 31st, 2016, 01:53 PM
The concept, history, and L. Ron Hubbard as a character is just funny to me. It's all pretty wacko.

Its not more crazy or funny, than a 600 year old man building a giant boat and regrouping two individuals of each species and get them have sex on the boat

Babs
August 31st, 2016, 03:17 PM
Its not more crazy or funny, than a 600 year old man building a giant boat and regrouping two individuals of each species and get them have sex on the boat

Sure but that's irrelevant to the thread.

Uniquemind
August 31st, 2016, 04:41 PM
It has a lot of common themes with Mormonism in my opinion. It's different for sure, but I don't know I smell some plagiarism.

dxcxdzv
August 31st, 2016, 04:58 PM
All aboard the Operation Snow White train.

mattsmith48
August 31st, 2016, 05:46 PM
It has a lot of common themes with Mormonism in my opinion. It's different for sure, but I don't know I smell some plagiarism.

What is plagiarism Scientology or the Mormons?

Voice_Of_Unreason
September 1st, 2016, 10:57 AM
What is plagiarism Scientology or the Mormons?

Here is a sure fire way to figure out who committed plagiarism. Know history. The Mormons were a religion long before Scientology, so it should be pretty obvious.

Uniquemind
September 1st, 2016, 11:58 AM
What is plagiarism Scientology or the Mormons?

Mormonism came first historically, and then Scientology came along later. So in my opinion there are some metaphysical details about the afterlife that got copied or seems to have inspired Scientology.

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 12:14 PM
Here is a sure fire way to figure out who committed plagiarism. Know history. The Mormons were a religion long before Scientology, so it should be pretty obvious.

Mormonism came first historically, and then Scientology came along later. So in my opinion there are some metaphysical details about the afterlife that got copied or seems to have inspired Scientology.

How is Scientology plagiarise from the Mormons?

StoppingTom
September 1st, 2016, 01:26 PM
Crackpot cult that abuses people and steals their money. Their dietary practices for newborns is legitimately dangerous, and more countries should be removing their status as a tax exempt organization and no longer support their claims to be a legitimate religion.

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 03:11 PM
Crackpot cult that abuses people and steals their money. Their dietary practices for newborns is legitimately dangerous, and more countries should be removing their status as a tax exempt organization and no longer support their claims to be a legitimate religion.

They are not doing anything worst things than other religion.

No religions should be tax exempt

Voice_Of_Unreason
September 1st, 2016, 05:31 PM
They are not doing anything worst things than other religion.

No religions should be tax exempt

You really need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to religion. Nothing you ever say makes any sense when you actually look at religions. I am honestly getting tired of your constant hypocritical and ignorant claims.

Separation of church and state is the reason churches are tax exempt. If you want churches to be tax, then feel free to advocate for lesser separation.

Now that MattSmith's daily religion rant is over, lets get back on topic. Scientology is in my view basically Satanism mixed in with Mormonism. Some guy created the religion for no clear reason besides so called revelations from God. There are some that follow it as an actual religion, letting it govern their life style. And their are some that use it as like a positive teaching club or as a way to mock actual religion. I'm not sure if it should be considered a religion or not. Its teachings are a weird fusion of Eastern religions like reincarnation and the importance of the soul; Western religions like salvation, mental fortitude, and a singular supreme being; and the outright crazy like aliens nuking volcanoes and limited freedom within the religion.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 06:58 PM
Churches in the USA are not state funded. They are non profit organizations.

If you mean Scientology churches, I wouldn't see them as non-profit really, taking how you need to give donations to be a member.

That they are tax-exempt is unjustified to me, not as such an unpleasant surprise though (unfortunately) with how the US works in its many wondrous ways.



No I was meaning I am fine with preaching the crazy stories because I do believe most of the preachers are good people and believe in it however I do not agree with how the Church of Scientology does things, from how they punish members by taking away their kids and putting them in poor daycare conditions to the pseudo Science and them suing anyone that tries to leave and expose them.

I think there is a good case to declare the church a cult and for them not to receive state funding however I would be fine with another Scientology church that doesn't do all the bad stuff receiving funding if that makes sense? It is not the Scientology I don't like, it is the leaders.

I didn't direct that response at you though :P .

If Scientology wasn't money-thirsty and corrupt in its own 'intricate' ways, I may be more neutral to it.


They are not doing anything worst things than other religion.

Scientology's perspective is unique though, like dianetics is arguably hardly better or similar to the odd practices of other religions in general.



No religions should be tax exempt

What about a (hypothetical even) religion that does mainly charity work as its main goal?

Have you heard of Wicca? It's a neopagan practice at least (many within it argue that it's not actually a religion, but not critically relevant). Do you frame this with all religion and how you see religion as a whole?


Separation of church and state is the reason churches are tax exempt. If you want churches to be tax, then feel free to advocate for lesser separation.

Good point, though it's then a potential problem where and how religions are defined from non-religions, when you have many shared belief systems (e.g. Wicca) which are argued to be like religions.



Scientology is in my view basically Satanism mixed in with Mormonism. Some guy created the religion for no clear reason besides so called revelations from God. There are some that follow it as an actual religion, letting it govern their life style. And their are some that use it as like a positive teaching club or as a way to mock actual religion. I'm not sure if it should be considered a religion or not. Its teachings are a weird fusion of Eastern religions like reincarnation and the importance of the soul; Western religions like salvation, mental fortitude, and a singular supreme being; and the outright crazy like aliens nuking volcanoes and limited freedom within the religion.

Revelations from a god can be argued to be the inspiration for most religions around, though.

What would define a proper religion for you?

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 08:34 PM
[QUOTE]You really need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to religion. Nothing you ever say makes any sense when you actually look at religions. I am honestly getting tired of your constant hypocritical and ignorant claims.

Separation of church and state is the reason churches are tax exempt. If you want churches to be tax, then feel free to advocate for lesser separation.

Now that MattSmith's daily religion rant is over, lets get back on topic.


If your tired of my ''daily religion rant'' why do you reply to them?

Scientology is in my view basically Satanism mixed in with Mormonism. Some guy created the religion for no clear reason besides so called revelations from God. There are some that follow it as an actual religion, letting it govern their life style. And their are some that use it as like a positive teaching club or as a way to mock actual religion. I'm not sure if it should be considered a religion or not. Its teachings are a weird fusion of Eastern religions like reincarnation and the importance of the soul; Western religions like salvation, mental fortitude, and a singular supreme being; and the outright crazy like aliens nuking volcanoes and limited freedom within the religion.

Did you say Satan and Satanism was just created by some guy? Cuz thats what it sounds like. Seriously how is Scientology related to Satanism and Mormonism? Scientology is as much of a religion as Mormonism or Islam or Christianity, they just believe in a different creation myth than those three other religion and yeah us being older than universe and being souls of aliens who got buried under volcanos and nukes thats crazy shit, but the virgin birth, the talking snake and a 600 year old man building a both a getting every existing animals to have them to fuck on that boat thats plausible. The only difference between Scientology and Mormonism and older religions like Christianity and Islam, we know who created Scientology and Mormonism and atlease part of the reason why, Christianity and Islam we don't know who came up with those religions and why.

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 08:46 PM
What about a (hypothetical even) religion that does mainly charity work as its main goal?

If the only thing they were doing was charity they wouldnt have to pay taxes with the exception of property taxes if it applies.

Have you heard of Wicca? It's a neopagan practice at least (many within it argue that it's not actually a religion, but not critically relevant). Do you frame this with all religion and how you see religion as a whole?

If they believe and/or worship a superior being and the only prove of the existance of that being or his powers solely on faith its a religion.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 08:51 PM
If the only thing they were doing was charity they wouldnt have to pay taxes with the exception of property taxes if it applies.

Right.



If they believe and/or worship a superior being and the only prove of the existance of that being or his powers solely on faith its a religion.

I don't know of any religion that works solely on faith!

Sure, most/all religions have faith as central aspects, but a lot of reasoning is done to build/expand ideas and views. If religions were all solely on faith, then you wouldn't even be able to rationally judge them as valid/invalid, because no logical reasoning system was used in them.

Anyway, at least a notable proportion of adherents to Wicca see the God and Goddess as psychological constructs that are powerful by how they interact with our conscious selves, through using belief of them selectively as a tool in practicing ceremonies.

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 08:57 PM
I don't know of any religion that works solely on faith!

Sure, most/all religions have faith as central aspects, but a lot of reasoning is done to build/expand ideas and views. If religions were all solely on faith, then you wouldn't even be able to rationally judge them as valid/invalid, because no logical reasoning system was used in them.

Fine! If they believe and/or worship a superior being and prove of the existance of that being or his powers is mainly base on faith, its a religion.

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 09:14 PM
Fine! If they believe and/or worship a superior being and prove of the existance of that being or his powers is mainly base on faith, its a religion.

Perhaps 'its' would be better than 'his', if we're talking about religions in general; alright.

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 09:18 PM
Perhaps 'its' would be better than 'his', if we're talking about religions in general; alright.

When im saying ''his powers'' im refering to the powers of the superior being who is worship or believed to be real

jamie_n5
September 1st, 2016, 09:23 PM
Well maybe the church of Scientology might have to prove their non-profit status then I don't know. My main point was that US churches are not state funded.

phuckphace
September 1st, 2016, 09:31 PM
should be banned/purged

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 09:35 PM
When im saying ''his powers'' im refering to the powers of the superior being who is worship or believed to be real

Yes, but with the variety of religions and their respective gods, their genders (or lack of), and their numbers (or even lack of), that's why I said 'it' rather than 'he'.

mattsmith48
September 1st, 2016, 09:38 PM
Yes, but with the variety of religions and their respective gods, their genders (or lack of), and their numbers (or even lack of), that's why I said 'it' rather than 'he'.

If they believe and/or worship a superior being and prove of the existance of that being or its powers is mainly base on faith, its a religion. Anything else?

candorgen
September 1st, 2016, 09:59 PM
If they believe and/or worship a superior being and prove of the existance of that being or its powers is mainly base on faith, its a religion. Anything else?

I mainly responded to you saying that religions work solely on faith, so is alright.

ThisBougieLife
September 4th, 2016, 01:47 PM
I think Scientology is really stupid (I do not view all religions as equal and some I judge harshly for various reasons), but unless they're harming anyone, I have no desire to see them restricted in any way. But their lawsuits and other questionable actions (such as not letting people leave the church) are problematic and cultish and one reason why I do not automatically equate them with any other religion.

candorgen
September 4th, 2016, 06:49 PM
I think Scientology is really stupid (I do not view all religions as equal and some I judge harshly for various reasons), but unless they're harming anyone, I have no desire to see them restricted in any way. But their lawsuits and other questionable actions (such as not letting people leave the church) are problematic and cultish and one reason why I do not automatically equate them with any other religion.

The bold text is a popular battle ground for/against certain religions, which I would oppose scientology with.

mattsmith48
September 4th, 2016, 08:10 PM
I think Scientology is really stupid (I do not view all religions as equal and some I judge harshly for various reasons), but unless they're harming anyone, I have no desire to see them restricted in any way. But their lawsuits and other questionable actions (such as not letting people leave the church) are problematic and cultish and one reason why I do not automatically equate them with any other religion.

The bold text is a popular battle ground for/against certain religions, which I would oppose scientology with.

All religions have harmed people in the past, are harming and will harm people in the future, its religions thats what they do, some do it differently like Scientology takes away all your money, or Christian and Muslims who kill people for doing something against God's will and of course I don't have to remind you what Catholic priest do

candorgen
September 5th, 2016, 11:43 AM
All religions have harmed people in the past, are harming and will harm people in the future, its religions thats what they do, some do it differently like Scientology takes away all your money[...]

I can replace 'religions' with 'technology' or 'oil companies', and arguably nothing has changed.



[...] or Christian and Muslims who kill people for doing something against God's [...]

War is not solely motivated by conflicting religious belief between groups of people, and it is not necessarily significantly motivated by that either.


[...] and of course I don't have to remind you what Catholic priest do

I am absolutely against the catholic church's existence taking what has happened and still is happening.

It does not mean however that I am absolutely against the existence of all religion, far from it.

phuckphace
September 5th, 2016, 12:47 PM
lol just lol at comparing a Murican shekel cult founded last Thursday to the eminent 1000+ year old Church, that's not apples and oranges at all

the difference between a cult and a "legit" religion can be found by looking at the founder. cults are always started by a megalomaniacal male who wants a fig leaf for unlimited underage pussy and money, see also Mormonism.

mattsmith48
September 5th, 2016, 02:11 PM
I can replace 'religions' with 'technology' or 'oil companies', and arguably nothing has changed.

Oil companies are as evil and dangerous as any religions


War is not solely motivated by conflicting religious belief between groups of people, and it is not necessarily significantly motivated by that either.

I was more thinking about things like terrorism.


I am absolutely against the catholic church's existence taking what has happened and still is happening.

It does not mean however that I am absolutely against the existence of all religion, far from it.

Im not against the Catholic church im just against pedophilia and the protection of pedophiles.

lol just lol at comparing a Murican shekel cult founded last Thursday to the eminent 1000+ year old Church, that's not apples and oranges at all

Its not because a religion is younger than other, like Mormonism, that they are less are religion than the older ones, like Christianity. In fact Mormonism is literally the sequal to the new testament, just like Christianity is the sequal to the old testament and what the the Jews believe in, if Mormonism is not a religion neither is Christianity.

the difference between a cult and a "legit" religion can be found by looking at the founder. cults are always started by a megalomaniacal male who wants a fig leaf for unlimited underage pussy and money

You mean like Christianity

phuckphace
September 5th, 2016, 02:54 PM
mattsmith don't think it be like it is, but it do

candorgen
September 5th, 2016, 03:17 PM
Oil companies are as evil and dangerous as any religions

My point was that oil companies and technology have both arguments for their clear functionality in keeping us going, and that they both harm us all, in different ways.

I was being accommodating for your statement though.


I was more thinking about things like terrorism.

Religious extremism, yes.


Im not against the Catholic church im just against pedophilia and the protection of pedophiles.

So you are completely against religion, but not a church of one?

Vlerchan
September 5th, 2016, 03:22 PM
mattsmith don't think it be like it is, but it do
I wouldn't mind, but Catholics, in particular, have developed an extensive philosophical defence of both their god, and their ethical values, which both stand independent of their religion. The main difference between the historical world religions, such as Catholicism, and modern cults, is the considerable intellectual tradition that the former boasts.

Reducing that to 'lel god' and 'omg peados' is more a remark on the user, than the intellectual integrity of institutions like the Catholic Church*.

---

* Disclaimer: I don't support the church, or a single one of its major philosophical beliefs.

mattsmith48
September 5th, 2016, 03:24 PM
So you are completely against religion, but not a church of one?

Im not really against religion im against pedophilia and killing people.

candorgen
September 5th, 2016, 03:26 PM
Im not really against religion im against pedophilia and killing people.

You're thinking though that religion is horrible because of some abuses of its practices.

phuckphace
September 5th, 2016, 04:18 PM
I wouldn't mind, but Catholics, in particular, have developed an extensive philosophical defence of both their god, and their ethical values, which both stand independent of their religion. The main difference between the historical world religions, such as Catholicism, and modern cults, is the considerable intellectual tradition that the former boasts.

true - this is sort of what I was hinting at when I said "eminent": anyone can see that the Church has validated itself, for lack of a better term with useful intellectual and material contributions to society - something that no proper cult can boast. with cults like Scientology and Mormonism you get the aforementioned sexual weirdness that seems to emanate from the creepy-charismatic leader, and lots of esoteric secret-club "pay-to-win" hokus. add to that a pronounced tendency towards anti-intellectualism and the gulf between the Church and L. Ron Hubbard or Brigham Young looks pretty huge

candorgen
September 5th, 2016, 04:23 PM
add to that a pronounced tendency towards anti-intellectualism and the gulf between the Church and L. Ron Hubbard or Brigham Young looks pretty huge

That I can go with.

Hubbard's 'ultimate secret' that scientology goes with (along with the glorious wonder that is dianetics) sounds like a worthwhile sci-fi story, but only a worthwhile sci-fi story.

phuckphace
September 5th, 2016, 04:26 PM
oh and for the record I know a lot of my posts can come across as anti-intellectual but I'm actually pretty annoyed by the Right's own anti-intellectual tendencies. I'm only anti-intellectual if the intellectuals in question are (((((((((sinecured Marxist professors with beards and bifocals who have never once stepped out of the ivory tower except to blow their sinecure money))))))))) if you catch my drift