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BNSF8865
August 28th, 2016, 07:54 AM
I'm a big second amendment supporter,i own a few rifles,and pistols. what do you guys think of them.

Flapjack
August 28th, 2016, 08:02 AM
Oh goshhh I don't know if I have the mental energy for another one of these debates xD

For the second amendment folks:


There were not semi auto guns back then or school shootings.
Tomas Jefferson once said
I am increasingly persuaded that the earth belongs exclusively to the living and that one generation has no more right to bind another to it's laws and judgments than one independent nation has the right to command another.
I don't get why you accept other amendments to the constitution but not the second, this proves to me gun nuts are hiding behind the second amendment.



As for my opinions on guns in general, I think they're weapons designed for killing and only those trained in using them and with a reason to have them should be able to. I would think only the military and armed units in the police force should be able to have guns.

Dalcourt
August 28th, 2016, 08:11 AM
I own guns myself as I use them for hunting purpose. Still I'm not really a big fan of them as they are by far more trouble than they are worth.
I had several not very nice experiences with guns that showed me that they shouldn't be in the hands of the wrong people...and I don't mean criminals just people with the wrong mindset.

So what I think about guns...I don't know.

Just JT
August 28th, 2016, 08:23 AM
I think that many other cultures outside of the USA have difficulty understanding this aspect of our culture. And that's just guna be the way that is. It's complex, and sensitive to many Americans.

Personally, I support the second amendment. I own guns, shot guns, hunted, whatever. When I'm of age I'll obtain all the proper permits required to carry concealed. So long as it's within my legal right to do so.

I also support the ideas of new, or different regulation of gun owners. I'd like to see more, and better background checks established. More uniform laws across all states, and education. Education starting at a young age, done as part of every child primary education. It's a pert of our life here and to NOT educate kids about the safe use and handeling (even if they or there parents done own or like guns) I think is redicilas.

We have sex Ed, drivers Ed, phys Ed, and why ever else Ed you can think of, but nothing about guns. Wonder why there's a problem with people not using guns appropriately

ThisBougieLife
August 28th, 2016, 09:57 AM
It's a pert of our life here

It isn't a part of "our life" in every part of the country, though. Guns may be a way of life in the South and other areas, but here in suburban California, I can think of few people who own them, and even fewer who see them as an inseparable part of American life.

Not that I'm saying education about firearms is a bad thing, but in some areas, it may be very unpopular.

OP: I have no opposition to people owning guns, but I do support gun control (and before the straw men begin, supporting gun control does not mean I support a ban on guns) and I do not believe guns to be this disaster-preventing panacea that the right portrays them as being.

I don't personally own a gun nor does anyone in my house.

Vlerchan
August 28th, 2016, 11:15 AM
Tomas Jefferson once said
Jefferson said a lot of stupid things, unconstrained democracy being just one of them.

Education starting at a young age, done as part of every child primary education.
This would normalises guns amongst younger people and this normalisation I feel feeds into the image of guns as a problem-solving device (i.e. school-shootings).

What can we teach kids, other than what's apparent: that guns are dangerous, and can do great harm.

---

I've said it before, and I still believe it.

Fine gun-manufacturers for the deaths their weapons cause, which will encourage gun manufacturers to limit the amount of collateral damage their products inflict. Thus, aligning the market-price with the through social cost of firearms. Pigouvian justice, and all that.

Flapjack
August 28th, 2016, 11:19 AM
Jefferson said a lot of stupid things, unconstrained democracy being just one of them.

But he was a founding father and one of the authors of the deceleration of independence so I think using him to expose those hiding behind the constitution is clever.

What do you mean by unconstrained democracy?:)

Vlerchan
August 28th, 2016, 11:21 AM
But he was a founding father and one of the authors of the deceleration of independence so I think using him to expose those hiding behind the constitution is clever.
I understand the point of the argument, though the Founding Fathers were a diverse set of thinkers, all the same :).

What do you mean by unconstrained democracy?:)
So, what Jefferson is claiming here, is that we shouldn't have constitutions, or entrenched political institutions. That the democratic whim is a finer judge.

Reise
August 28th, 2016, 11:34 AM
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/001/890/916.jpg

Just JT
August 28th, 2016, 11:46 AM
It isn't a part of "our life" in every part of the country, though. Guns may be a way of life in the South and other areas, but here in suburban California, I can think of few people who own them, and even fewer who see them as an inseparable part of American life.

Not that I'm saying education about firearms is a bad thing, but in some areas, it may be very unpopular.

OP: I have no opposition to people owning guns, but I do support gun control (and before the straw men begin, supporting gun control does not mean I support a ban on guns) and I do not believe guns to be this disaster-preventing panacea that the right portrays them as being.

I don't personally own a gun nor does anyone in my house.

Keep in mind, and from my own personal experience, the ones who go around letting people know they own and carry guns as a part of an everyday conversation, are the ones I'd worry about. Almost everyone I know who own and carry, rarely talk about it. It's a private thing.

Jefferson said a lot of stupid things, unconstrained democracy being just one of them.


This would normalises guns amongst younger people and this normalisation I feel feeds into the image of guns as a problem-solving device (i.e. school-shootings).

What can we teach kids, other than what's apparent: that guns are dangerous, and can do great harm.

---

I've said it before, and I still believe it.

Fine gun-manufacturers for the deaths their weapons cause, which will encourage gun manufacturers to limit the amount of collateral damage their products inflict. Thus, aligning the market-price with the through social cost of firearms. Pigouvian justice, and all that.


How does it feed into a problem solving devise?
What can we teach them?
We teach proper and safe use and handling of a gun. We teach its dangers yes, that goes without saying. But we also teach the "good" that a gun can be used for. Hunting, target shooting, it's is a sport.... How to care for a gun, things like this. Education itself will reduce curiousity and coming to terms of what uneducated people will deem appropriate.

For example. In Colorado where weed is now legal for recreational use, there is formal education in the schools about weed, the how to and what it does. And the number of kids smoking weed is declining, and is believed to be as a result of education, and creating an environment that has less demand on it

Im not saying everything is great here in the USA with guns and weed at all. And I do feel we need different regulations and maybe some new laws. And me, you, nobody here is guna change any of this. But guns are an everyday part of our lives whether we realise it or not. So why not educate kids about how to properly handle and use one. Especially if they might end up needing to some day, or if they find themselves in a dangerious situation with a gun that someone has. Without education they won't even know if someone (even if an adult) is handeling their gun properly or not.

Posts merged. ~Mars

Vlerchan
August 28th, 2016, 11:58 AM
How does it feed into a problem solving devise?
It normalises firearms as being a part of everyday life.

In Europe, the idea of holding a firearm scares the shit out of most people.

So, the idea of engaging in a school-shooting, for us, is a lot more distant.

We teach proper and safe use and handling of a gun.
In other words, it just teaches people how to use guns.

The reason that we have sex education, and drivers education (well, we don't) is because we expect young people to engage in those things, and prepare them for it. Because, sex and driving are normal human activities that we should all look to do.

One would presume that training them, on purchase of a gun, would be a lot more appropriate and not also normalise gun-ownership, and make it appear as if carrying firearms is a normal, everyday thing to do.

It won't reduce gun-violence, it might just massage the statistics, though.

And the number of kids smoking weed is declining, and is believed to be as a result of education, and creating an environment that has less demand on it
Rates of marijuana use among Colorado's teenagers are essentially unchanged in the years since the state's voters legalized marijuana in 2012, new survey data from the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment shows.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/21/colorado-survey-shows-what-marijuana-legalization-will-do-to-your-kids/

But guns are an everyday part of our lives whether we realise it or not.
Reinforcing this image, is not helpful, even if it exists.

Just JT
August 28th, 2016, 12:16 PM
Vlerchan yes, I guess it does normalize many concepts of guns. And I do t think using a gun is something we can expect a child to do. But in the same token, just because you turn 18 does not mean you've been granted some kinda wisdom that is understood that you know how to handle and use a gun.

I get other countries have very different views of guns, it's a cultural thing. Not saying gun violence is a cultural thing, that's a problem. School shootings are fucked up, I just don't get them at all. So I think we're on the same page on that

Look, I'm not all that grwat in debates here ok? I'm just sharing my thoughts on the topic. I get where your coming from, I really do. Not being exposed to this, knowing of the dangers, watching the news about all the shootings here, it's a fucked up place here like that.

Like I've said before and in other threads. The laws I think need to be changed. There too loose. I turn 16 next week and although I'm not legally old enough to own a gun, I have access to guns. Does that mean I don't know how to be safe with them? Other gun owners may have mess experience trading education what ever than I do. Whether we like guns or not, there part of our lives. We may not (and should not) expect someone to use a gun at my age or your age. But through education we'd be taught that say if at a friends house our friends dad had a few drinks and breaks out a .38 we should be aware of how he's handeling that gun and know if it proper or not and what to do and how to do it to be safe.

Yeah, I know that scinerio may not really happen (much) but it does

It's just my opinion is all

jamie_n5
August 28th, 2016, 12:56 PM
I am a supporter also. I own many different guns too.

Professional Russian
August 28th, 2016, 03:17 PM
image (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/001/890/916.jpg)

this picture perfectly describes every gun debate and political debate on here. they all end up the same way. either locked from to much name calling or just left to die

lyhom
August 28th, 2016, 04:20 PM
ngl these are getting as tired as the 4000 abortion debates like two years ago

PlasmaHam
August 28th, 2016, 08:18 PM
Oh goshhh I don't know if I have the mental energy for another one of these debates xD
Agreed, I hope this doesn't go full blown. I wonder why people keep creating new gun debates every month.
For the second amendment folks:

There were not semi auto guns back then or school shootings.

I'll give you a point for the school shootings. People were much more respectful 200 years ago, love of God does that. As for the claim that there weren't semi-auto guns back then, you are dead wrong. Look up the Belton flintlock, or the Pucker gun, or the Girandoni rifle, or the Pepper box revolvers. All were fully automatic handheld weapons that exist pre-2nd Amendment. The Founding Fathers knew of these, commissioning some to the Revolution, Jefferson himself later outfitted the Lewis and Clark expedition with a few of these. Yet there was no little clause in the Constitution about these guns being banned or not allowed.

As for your quote from Thomas Jefferson, a dumb one at that, I will respond with a few of my own.
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?” – Patrick Henry.
This last quote sorta sums up my view on guns, as well as privacy vs security.
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” – Thomas Jefferson.

Periphery
August 29th, 2016, 12:35 AM
So why exactly is this debate still a thing? Nobody can win this because 'we have to protect ourselves with guns from people with guns who will probably never even threaten is but we still need them cuz guns'.

Bram is not even going to debate this.