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ethan-s
August 8th, 2016, 06:38 PM
well, lets talk about it.

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 06:47 PM
Alright then.

What is a mental disorder, for you?

phuckphace
August 8th, 2016, 06:51 PM
I don't particularly feel like delving into the particulars of such unfathomable questions like "is wanting to sever your genitalia a mental disorder?" so I'll just state for the record that the total LGBT population of the US is something like 2.5% and transsexuals are an even smaller percentage of that number. it's a made-up issue over a group that is so tiny it's barely even real

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 07:02 PM
I don't particularly feel like delving into the particulars of such unfathomable questions like "is wanting to sever your genitalia a mental disorder?"

Yes, that defines me so succinctly.

It's like presuming that all terminally ill people want euthanasia ASAP as they thirst for it.



so I'll just state for the record that the total LGBT population of the US is something like 2.5% and transsexuals are an even smaller percentage of that number. it's a made-up issue over a group that is so tiny it's barely even real

The demographics are relatively small yes, but it doesn't necessitate it being seen as not important.

('Muslim terrorists' are microscopic compared to trans people in demographics, but I don't see you viewing them in similar light.)

phuckphace
August 8th, 2016, 07:19 PM
('Muslim terrorists' are microscopic compared to trans people in demographics, but I don't see you viewing them in similar light.)

yeah, about that...I do believe that a group which tends to spontaneously detonate ranks higher on the care scale than a group that whines on Tumblr about the WASP bigot who pepper sprayed them for using the urinal in a dress

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 07:23 PM
No of course it's not! Do you have any sources of real doctors that think so? Any national health organisations that recognise it as one?

Vlerchan
August 8th, 2016, 07:32 PM
Yes. It is a behavioural pattern underpinning a sense of distress or suffering.

Edit., That doesn't mean it is best practice to attempt to fight it, or hide it from sight.

Human
August 8th, 2016, 07:40 PM
I think it's something people fear to talk about because they feel like they will be judged for an honest answer, I think I would say it is, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 8th, 2016, 07:43 PM
Believing you are something you are not is the classic example of a mental disorder. If I started acting like a dog, urinating on hydrants and pooping in the front yard, people would obviously see I have a few screws loose. Even in ancient days they knew that was a bad sign.

Yet today we let people think they are different genders, species, and ages and encourage that behavior! People willingly mutilate their bodies, pumping them up with dangerous and unnatural hormones all to make their crazy hallucinations a reality. These people need therapy, not encouragement. Of course, this society of *feelings* is annoying the basic principles of science and psychology just so people can have this *feeling.*

Also, one question for the pro-transgender people. What parent allows a five year old kid to decide if he wanted to undergo a "sex" change? A five year old can't even pick out their own clothes at that age!
Yes. It is a behavioural pattern underpinning a sense of distress or suffering.

Edit., That doesn't mean it is best practice to attempt to fight it, or hide it from sight.

The best practice is to treat it by going to a trained psychologist like you do with any other mental disorder.

Vlerchan
August 8th, 2016, 07:46 PM
What parent allows a five year old kid to decide if he wanted to undergo a "sex" change? A five year old can't even pick out their own clothes at that age!
There are professionals whose job it is to deal with these sort of issues.

The prevalent advice, as far as I am aware, is that sex-change operations shouldn't be considered until a later age, but tend to have a positive impact on the subject.

The best practice is to treat it by going to a trained psychologist like you do with any other mental disorder.

Re., above.

You won't be happy with best practice, though.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 07:53 PM
Believing you are something you are not is the classic example of a mental disorder. If I started acting like a dog, urinating on hydrants and pooping in the front yard, people would obviously see I have a few screws loose. Even in ancient days they knew that was a bad sign.

Yet today we let people think they are different genders, species, and ages and encourage that behavior! People willingly mutilate their bodies, pumping them up with dangerous and unnatural hormones all to make their crazy hallucinations a reality. These people need therapy, not encouragement. Of course, this society of *feelings* is annoying the basic principles of science and psychology just so people can have this *feeling.*

Also, one question for the pro-transgender people. What parent allows a five year old kid to decide if he wanted to undergo a "sex" change? A five year old can't even pick out their own clothes at that age!


The best practice is to treat it by going to a trained psychologist like you do with any other mental disorder.
Why do you think this? Have you read up about it? Or have you just said more meaningless hateful crap?

Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289


Also, one question for the pro-transgender people. What parent allows a five year old kid to decide if he wanted to undergo a "sex" change? A five year old can't even pick out their own clothes at that age!

Sex change surgery or dressing as the gender they identify as? Provide sources for once.

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 8th, 2016, 07:56 PM
There are professionals whose job it is to deal with these sort of issues.

The prevalent advice, as far as I am aware, is that sex-change operations shouldn't be considered until a later age, but tend to have a positive impact on the subject.

The thing is, I read a few weeks back that a large percentage of children have some sort of jealousy or want to be of the other gender similar to that of transgender people. However, the vast majority grow out of that by puberty. Basing the rest of a child's life based on a developmental phase seems wrong. The child should be able to develop naturally, instead of others deciding about it.

Forgive me for not citing a source for this, I'll try to re-find the study I read.

Why do you think this? Have you read up about it? Or have you just said more meaningless hateful crap?

Wow, insults, I'm so offended.


Sex change surgery or dressing as the gender they identify as? Provide sources for once.

Let me rephrase the question since you can't seem to understand. What parent lets their toddler decide that he is not the right gender and needs to live as the other?

Vlerchan
August 8th, 2016, 07:58 PM
Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains
So do people with depression and anxiety.

Forgive me for not citing a source for this, I'll try to re-find the study I read.
It's cool. I agree, regardless, that children shouldn't be allowed to make life-altering decisions, and there parents -a s would be required by law - certainly shouldn't be allowed to, either.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 07:58 PM
The thing is, I read a few weeks back that a large percentage of children have some sort of jealousy or want to be of the other gender similar to that of transgender people. However, the vast majority grow out of that by puberty. Basing the rest of a child's life based on a developmental phase seems wrong. The child should be able to develop naturally, instead of others deciding about it.

Forgive me for not citing a source for this, I'll try to re-find the study I read.
Children go through stages. Many will dress up as the opposite sex and then lose interest in it in a month or so and yeah I agree no one should be deciding what gender a child dresses as.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:01 PM
So do people with depression and anxiety.

True:) It appears though that transsexuals have the brain of the gender they identify as, so it is not just a mental issue and they really are born into the wrong body.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:06 PM
Let me rephrase the question since you can't seem to understand. What parent lets their toddler decide that he is not the right gender and needs to live as the other?
Or you mistyped :D I did think me agreeing with you was too good to be true:P

An accepting parent would? For most it is a phase they will grow out of and not letting them explore their desire to be the other gender will make sad and stressed out. If they are transgender it could make them feel unloved and might make them nervous about coming out to the parent.

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 8th, 2016, 08:06 PM
True:) It appears though that transsexuals have the brain of the gender they identify as, so it is not just a mental issue and they really are born into the wrong body.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

So, you are saying that transgenderism is the result of a developmental disorder? That is pretty obvious that it is a mental disorder.

Also, forgive me for including resources, but this is more of a common sense debate than a "this doctor said this therefore it is right" sorta debate.
Or you mistyped I did think me agreeing with you was too good to be true

An accepting parent would? For most it is a phase they will grow out of and not letting them explore their desire to be the other gender will make sad and stressed out. If they are transgender it could make them feel unloved and might make them nervous about coming out to the parent.

A five year old? Who can't even choose their own clothes should be able to make such a life changing decision? Read my other post regarding that study I read.

Vlerchan
August 8th, 2016, 08:06 PM
True:) It appears though that transsexuals have the brain of the gender they identify as, so it is not just a mental issue and they really are born into the wrong body.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
I am not claiming that their claims are, or are not, legitimate. Like with those with depression, or anxiety, I believe there claims are legitimate, too.

But if there was not something amiss, a disorder, then transgender individuals wouldn't be under the same sense of distress as current, and we wouldn't have to discuss ways to treat them (like sex-change ops).

The bigger issue, and you're latching onto it without realising it, is the stigma we attach to mental health issues.

Also, forgive me for including resources, but this is more of a common sense debate than a "this doctor said this therefore it is right" sorta debate.
It's really actually quite (edit!): complicated, which is why adopt such a middle-of-the-road position and just point to professionals.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:08 PM
So, you are saying that transgenderism is the result of a developmental disorder? That is pretty obvious that it is a mental disorder.

Also, forgive me for including resources, but this is more of a common sense debate than a "this doctor said this therefore it is right" sorta debate.
You didn't read the source did you? -_-
Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminals (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

Also are you claiming that your 'common sense' outweighs a doctors professional opinion?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:12 PM
I am not claiming that their claims are, or are not, legitimate. Like with those with depression, or anxiety, I believe there claims are legitimate, too.

But if there was not something amiss, a disorder, then transgender individuals wouldn't be under the same sense of distress as current, and we wouldn't have to discuss ways to treat them (like sex-change ops).

The bigger issue, and you're latching onto it without realising it, is the stigma we attach to mental health issues.


I don't know what to make of this buddy, I know you're a smart guy and not a hateful person but it feels just like the debates about whether or not being gay is a mental disorder.

Gender dysphoria must be horrible for those that are transsexual but the solution is to let them have a sex change and let them do what they want with their bodies.

I've always known we put a harmful stigma around mental illnesses buddy:)

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 8th, 2016, 08:14 PM
You didn't read the source did you? -_-

I read it fully. Its a developmental disorder just like I said. Which in turn causes a mental disorder. Also, studies have shown that the brains of females and males operate much differently outside of just sex.

Doctors have their agendas, nobody is unbiased. We are talking about transgenderism on a clearly common sense level, not the opinions of a doctor with his/her own agendas. If you have the moral ground then common sense should be on your side. You have nothing to be afraid of.

Vlerchan
August 8th, 2016, 08:16 PM
I don't know what to make of this buddy, I know you're a smart guy and not a hateful person but it feels just like the debates about whether or not being gay is a mental disorder.
That's not a mental disorder, since it's not characterised by distress.

Dysphoria is, loosely defined, 'a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.'

ender dysphoria must be horrible for those that are transsexual but the solution is to let them have a sex change and let them do what they want with their bodies.
I am not disagreeing with that. Far as I can see, it is the advice given from those who have gender dysphoria.

I've always known we put a harmful stigma around mental illnesses buddy
I am just saying the stigma you attach to mental disorders (and we all do) is the reason you're so reluctant to categorise gender dysphoria as one, too, I'd imagine.

Also, studies have shown that the brains of females and males operate much differently outside of just sex.
Dubious, but not the point of this debate, so I will leave it.

Doctors have their agendas, nobody is unbiased. We are talking about transgenderism on a clearly common sense level, not the opinions of a doctor with his/her own agendas.
This is frankly just a means of de-intellectualising the debate.

If you have the moral ground then common sense should be on your side.
Most of my opinions don't seem to be common sense, they have little support, too, which says nothing about their actual moral statues.

You have nothing to be afraid of.
But everything to be very afraid of.

Leprous
August 8th, 2016, 08:20 PM
I read it fully. Its a developmental disorder just like I said. Which in turn causes a mental disorder. Also, studies have shown that the brains of females and males operate much differently outside of just sex.

Doctors have their agendas, nobody is unbiased. We are talking about transgenderism on a clearly common sense level, not the opinions of a doctor with his/her own agendas. If you have the moral ground then common sense should be on your side. You have nothing to be afraid of.

Nobody is unbiased, neither are you. And you clearly dislike transgenders for no actual reason. So what you're saying is that someone who studied years to know exactly what people are going trough have no idea what they're talking about? Also how is a development disorder always a mental disorder? The brains may operate different, but that doesn't mean the brains can't end up in the wrong body you know.

Basicly if a guy feels like acting a bit more girly they have a mental disorder, do you think that?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:22 PM
I read it fully. Its a developmental disorder just like I said. Which in turn causes a mental disorder. Also, studies have shown that the brains of females and males operate much differently outside of just sex.

Doctors have their agendas, nobody is unbiased. We are talking about transgenderism on a clearly common sense level, not the opinions of a doctor with his/her own agendas. If you have the moral ground then common sense should be on your side. You have nothing to be afraid of.
Do you know what a developmental disorder means? If you do then please explain how transgenderism is one. Is this like you trying to explain to me how entropy disproves evolution? You are right about the fact male and female brains operate differently :)

Doctors have their agenda? Yeah to help people:D Do they have a financial incentive to lie about what causes transgenderism?

Oh gosh... I am afraid to ask.... what do you mean when you say you have the moral ground? Skygod say they're bad?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:25 PM
That's not a mental disorder, since it's not characterised by distress.

Dysphoria is, loosely defined, 'a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.'


I am not disagreeing with that. Far as I can see, it is the advice given from those who have gender dysphoria.



Yeah I think gender dysphoria may be a mental disorder however the few reliable sites seem to be unclear on the issue. Could a person be transgender and not experience gender dysphoria before they transition?

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 8th, 2016, 08:25 PM
Vlerchan Apologizes if I sound like I want to de-intellectualize this debate, I didn't really mean it that way. I was just trying to explain to Jack that just because a doctor says something doesn't mean it is automatically correct. He sound be able to put together his own arguments instead of constantly referring to others for that. I want to see how he personally sees how transgenderism is not a mental disorder so we can discuss that. Referring to sources is fine, but form your own opinions as well.

I have another question for those who still don't see transgenderism as a disorder:

How would you react if I, a total stranger, came up to you and said I was a woman despite looking like a man?

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 8th, 2016, 08:28 PM
Basicly if a guy feels like acting a bit more girly they have a mental disorder, do you think that?

No, that is feminism/masculism, more about personality and a discussion for another day. Cutting off body parts, poisoning yourself, thinking you are something you aren't is a completely different story.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:33 PM
No, that is feminism/masculism, more about personality and a discussion for another day. Cutting off body parts, poisoning yourself, thinking you are something you aren't is a completely different story.
Right think of your consciousness as being inside your brain, because it is. Now imagine if someone took your male brain and put you inside a women's body. Would you then become mentally ill? That is being transgender in a nutshell. You were born into the wrong body.

Vlerchan
August 8th, 2016, 08:34 PM
I was just trying to explain to Jack that just because a doctor says something doesn't mean it is automatically correct.
This is certainly true, and there is without a doubt no reason to treat academic studies as gospel. Odds are there is biases in funding, interpretation and publication. I have more of an issue with people dismissing them out of hand as opposed to giving the literature an actual read* (You can search for papers that cited that one on GoogleScholar for responses, but I'd imagine it has a massive recent literature considering it's emerging salience in civil rights debates).

---

* If people aren't willing to do that, then it's worth questioning why they have such a strong opinion on this in the first place.

He sound be able to put together his own arguments instead of constantly referring to others for that.
Well, I can't judge here, since I prefer to post source-heavy (and that's here, the stuff I submit for my actual coursework has upwards 50 - 60 sources, a lot of the time).

I can see how the stuff he is linking to substantiates his position, though, anyways.

Would you then become mentally ill? That is being transgender in a nutshell. You were born into the wrong body.
You would hold to a behavioural pattern that would underpin feelings of unease and distress, which is a definitional mental disorder.

The fact that you are using words like 'wrong' to describe the condition they face seems to support this.

Leprous
August 8th, 2016, 08:37 PM
No, that is feminism/masculism, more about personality and a discussion for another day. Cutting off body parts, poisoning yourself, thinking you are something you aren't is a completely different story.

And how are cutting off body parts and poisoning yourself related to this

Also one more question. If I believe I am a good guitarist but I'm not, does that make me mentally ill?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 08:43 PM
You would hold to a behavioural pattern that would underpin feelings of unease and distress, which is a definitional mental disorder.

The fact that you are using words like 'wrong' to describe the condition they face seems to support this.
I believe that distress is gender dysphoria and is a mental disorder. I have read that some researchers have suggested it is caused by the social stigma they face and so a parent forcing a child to behave like the sex they was assigned at birth, as PlasmaHam suggested could cause this condition. I have also read that researchers are disagreeing over the cause so don't take that as fact however I think the chance that the transphobic parenting style causes gender dysphoria is reason enough to have a more open and accepting parenting style.

Not sure what was wrong with me using the word 'wrong'? If it was offensive, sorry! I meant the body's sex did not match the sex of the brain:)

dxcxdzv
August 9th, 2016, 07:09 AM
The only classified mental disorder related to "transgenderism" concerns the Gender Identity Disorder.
It is mentioned in the American Psychological Association DSM 5 as "Gender Disphoria".

"Transgedenrism" in itself and related is not a mental disorder, it also seems by the way that it can have biological causes, Zhou et al. (1995) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289) (published in nature) although it can lead to the previously mentioned gender identity disorder.

The APA's position on this issue seems clear:
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
(Keep in mind the name of the person who wrote this is not mentioned, neither are the studies on which those says are probably based, though I assume they may result of a long experience in the fields of research this issue convers)

Vlerchan
August 9th, 2016, 07:54 AM
[...] though I assume they may result of a long experience in the fields of research this issue convers)
It's not making a radical judgement regardless. It's referring to the most accepted definition of mental disorder (the one I was also using) and then claiming because not all transpeople are distressed vis--vis their gender being transgender cannot be equated with having a mental disorder.

The feeling I have is that gender dysphoria does - in general - underpin a sense of distress - founded on a dissociation with their own body - and to an extent that we should be able to consider it a mental disorder.

Of course though perhaps I am overestimating the number of people that feel this sense of unease. In such a case I cede to the APA (even if I figure that just undermines the funding position of transpeople).

Arkansasguy
August 9th, 2016, 07:55 AM
well, lets talk about it.

Yes. By definition, pathological delusions are mental disorders.

Flapjack
August 9th, 2016, 08:03 AM
Yes. By definition, pathological delusions are mental disorders.
I don't get how it so hard for people to understand. The brain is in the wrong body. Imagine if I put your brain in a women's body, would you be delusional believing you're a guy? The brains are physically different.

Arkansasguy
August 9th, 2016, 10:31 AM
I don't get how it so hard for people to understand. The brain is in the wrong body. Imagine if I put your brain in a women's body, would you be delusional believing you're a guy? The brains are physically different.

Imagine if there were no such thing as hypotheticals, and we had to deal with reality as it actually is.

candorgen
August 9th, 2016, 10:38 AM
yeah, about that...I do believe that a group which tends to spontaneously detonate ranks higher on the care scale than a group that whines on Tumblr about the WASP bigot who pepper sprayed them for using the urinal in a dress

Good! You judge the importance of a group of people by more than their level of minority in the population as a whole.


How much time do you spend looking at tumblr?

Your persistence in equating some of tumblr SJW culture with most/all of the relevant viewpoints of transgenders is impressively mystifying.


DriveAlive

Please do be open and ask about the experiences of trans people, if you liked that post I responded to above.


Yes. It is a behavioural pattern underpinning a sense of distress or suffering.

Edit., That doesn't mean it is best practice to attempt to fight it, or hide it from sight.

I think it's something people fear to talk about because they feel like they will be judged for an honest answer, I think I would say it is, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

With what Wikipedia has said ("[A mental disorder is] a behavioral or mental pattern that may cause suffering or a poor ability to function in life") [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder ], I agree with Vlerchan's definition, where the transgender person is hindered from seeking to fulfil their desires.

If we are to see this through what a mental disorder is then it would be gender dysphoria, a part of transgender experience (not all of it).

Like any mental disorder, treatment is needed to remove known factors which are seen to be sustaining it so that the person recovers. In this case it is removing the hindrances I spoke of.


Believing you are something you are not is the classic example of a mental disorder. If I started acting like a dog, urinating on hydrants and pooping in the front yard, people would obviously see I have a few screws loose. Even in ancient days they knew that was a bad sign.

Delusions are a warning sign of many mental disorders, yes. This does not apply to ADHD though, as example. Delusions are symptoms of some disorder.

I still want to know what defines a mental disorder for you ( ethan-s included). Some reference points here will help against the phrase 'mental disorder' being thrown about the place.


Yet today we let people think they are different genders, species, and ages and encourage that behavior!

Everyone thinks/feels that they are a certain gender. How else does anyone go with any gender?

With the different species part, that is a mental disorder that requires treatment so that both the desires, and the feelings that seek them, are dealt with.

Humans are of different genders. Humans are not of different species.

The different ages part sounds more like high-end optimism rather than necessarily a mental disorder, but I won't go into it.



People willingly mutilate their bodies, pumping them up with dangerous and unnatural hormones all to make their crazy hallucinations a reality.

These descriptions could use a lot of toning down because they sound more like a plot point for a powerful horror film.

What defines mutilation, clearly, for you?

If we are to run the definition by repulsion of appearances, then shaving is a near/actual mutilation of hair (and the skin, when mistakes are made). Circumcision is even more so a mutilation. Braces on the teeth are also a mutilation. Taking tonsils are also a mutilation. So on so forth.

Hormones are not unnatural - they are products of the human body!

Anything is dangerous when used in certain ways. You need to define what constitutes 'dangerous use' here to put this emotive description on a leash.

HRT is not used only for transgender people. Have you heard of some treatment for menopause, as well as hormone deficiencies?

I hope that you are consistent in also seeing steroids in the same light as HRT, because it also involves hormones.



These people need therapy, not encouragement.


The best practice is to treat it by going to a trained psychologist like you do with any other mental disorder.

What therapy do you propose?



Of course, this society of *feelings* is annoying the basic principles of science and psychology just so people can have this *feeling.*

This doesn't mean much at all. Everything is rooted in feeling. Humans have feelings; even relatively non-emotive practices still are guided by motivation, which is a feeling.



Also, one question for the pro-transgender people. What parent allows a five year old kid to decide if he wanted to undergo a "sex" change? A five year old can't even pick out their own clothes at that age!

The thing is, I read a few weeks back that a large percentage of children have some sort of jealousy or want to be of the other gender similar to that of transgender people. However, the vast majority grow out of that by puberty. Basing the rest of a child's life based on a developmental phase seems wrong. The child should be able to develop naturally, instead of others deciding about it.

In this scenario, the parent only gives (at most) inspiration for this child to do a sex change. The child does most of the thinking itself.

Anyhow, I'm totally against that. The parent is there to advise the child that such a topic isn't to be decided on, but to instead leave time pass till he/she is of proper age (midway into puberty, let's say).



Let me rephrase the question since you can't seem to understand. What parent lets their toddler decide that he is not the right gender and needs to live as the other?

A parent who allows their child to express themselves within bounds of learning, and not harming anyone.

Gender is societal.


"
Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains"

So do people with depression and anxiety.


Vlerchan has a point here with his response. I wouldn't use the 'nature' factor in 'nature-nurture' as something to back the argument.


[...]it is not just a mental issue and they really are born into the wrong body.


Right think of your consciousness as being inside your brain, because it is. Now imagine if someone took your male brain and put you inside a women's body. Would you then become mentally ill? That is being transgender in a nutshell. You were born into the wrong body.

In the past I would have agreed with you, but now I don't see that it is as it being about the 'wrong' body. That implies that there is a 'right' body, which means that, for example, a XY human body is 'meant' to be coincidental with a human mind which identifies as male.

I see gender to be a more complex mental structure, for which aspects of it certainly have good trends in coinciding with certain biological sexes (not necessities of course), but without need to see the mind-body 'pairing' as right/wrong.

( PlasmaHam)

I feel we should bring in the existence of intersex people here, people whose 'sex chromosomes' are not exclusively XX or XY.


So, you are saying that transgenderism is the result of a developmental disorder? That is pretty obvious that it is a mental disorder.

I read it fully. Its a developmental disorder just like I said. Which in turn causes a mental disorder.

If you are going to go along with transgender being a developmental disorder (and with your previous view of it being a mental disorder), then it means it cannot be cured, just like the autistic spectrum.


I don't know what to make of this buddy, I know you're a smart guy and not a hateful person but it feels just like the debates about whether or not being gay is a mental disorder.

Vlerchan may just prefer keeping out of the battle. I can sympathise. :P



Gender dysphoria must be horrible for those that are transsexual but the solution is to let them have a sex change and let them do what they want with their bodies.

PlasmaHam

I didn't spend hundreds, and think for many months, for no proper reason.


Also, studies have shown that the brains of females and males operate much differently outside of just sex.

Agreed. Along with this, I'd appreciate it if you could scan/read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_function


Yes. By definition, pathological delusions are mental disorders.

No they are not. Pathological delusions are symptoms of some mental disorders. They do not equate literally, as you have just said.


Imagine if there were no such thing as hypotheticals, and we had to deal with reality as it actually is.

Then there would be no reality at all (but I digress again).

DriveAlive
August 9th, 2016, 11:13 AM
I am not necessarily sure if this is the right thread to ask this because this is about whether or not transgenderism is a mental disorder, but I do not want to start a whole new thread on the topic. So, for those who do identify as transgender, would you care to explain when and why you decided this and how it manifests in your life.

dxcxdzv
August 10th, 2016, 06:49 AM
It's not making a radical judgement regardless. It's referring to the most accepted definition of mental disorder (the one I was also using) and then claiming because not all transpeople are distressed vis--vis their gender being transgender cannot be equated with having a mental disorder.
What is important here - I think - is that there is a difference between transgenderism and the mental disorder associated, the first state can lead to the second but it doesn't mean it is a mental disorder in itself.
When you think about it, pretty much everything can cause a distress, even paying for your daily energy drink with a bunch of coins.
The key word here is probably "significant". But the question of whether or not this is significant must be answered by a specialist, case by case.


The feeling I have is that gender dysphoria does - in general - underpin a sense of distress - founded on a dissociation with their own body - and to an extent that we should be able to consider it a mental disorder.
Gender disphoria is defined as the actual disorder, so yeah.
Feeling transgender however does not mean you have a mental disorder, any issue that may arise from this state is linked, but separated.

---------

I'll also address the issue of the "operation", I can understand this can be controversial, however I see no real difference from other surgical operations that aim at modifying the body appearance, except that in this case we have a precise medical condition (not in the sense of illness) that can't be resumed to a simple "will" of changing of sex.
I'll also add that I difficultly imagine a respectable surgeon practicing such an operation without a psychologist's approval.

Vlerchan
August 10th, 2016, 07:24 AM
Gender disphoria is defined as the actual disorder, so yeah.
Feeling transgender however does not mean you have a mental disorder, any issue that may arise from this state is linked, but separated.
I was convinced of all this in a separate discussion last night.

So I'll bow out at this stage.

Flapjack
August 10th, 2016, 08:44 AM
Imagine if there were no such thing as hypotheticals, and we had to deal with reality as it actually is.
Well the reality is gender disphoria is a mental disorder and transgenderism is not. You saying transgenderism is a mental disorder does not make it one.

ethan-s
August 12th, 2016, 11:29 AM
So you telling me you came out of the womb with male plumbing, you have male chromosomes and you look like a dude but you are really a female? There is something wrong, buddy. Just because you think something is something doesn't make it so. For example if I think my Motorola phone is an iPhone, which it obviously isn't because it's a Motorola, it does not make it an iPhone.

Flapjack
August 12th, 2016, 11:36 AM
So you telling me you came out of the womb with male plumbing, you have male chromosomes and you look like a dude but you are really a female? There is something wrong, buddy. Just because you think something is something doesn't make it so. For example if I think my Motorola phone is an iPhone, which it obviously isn't because it's a Motorola, it does not make it an iPhone.
You're over simplifying it:) The human body is far from simple. Can you not accept what doctors that actually understand the human body and mind have to say?

Male brains and female brains are structurally different.
Source (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289)

Imagine if someone transferred your brain to a female body. You would still be a guy right?

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 24th, 2016, 03:14 PM
I was just looking through some news sites and stumbled across a neat bit of information. Apparently, the nonpartisan scientific journal, The New Atlantis (http://www.thenewatlantis.com/), published a recent report regarding sexuality and gender. The basis of the report was analyzing the high amount of mental health issues in LGTB+ community and scientific explanations for transgenderism and sexual attraction. It touched on a lot of issues we have talked about, and was conducted by leading doctors and professionals.

I encourage you all to read it. I'll link it down below. I would add some quotes, but it is better if you read it entirely in context. When I add quotes, people usually just focus on the quote instead of the source material, so no quotes. Plus, its rather long and I haven't finished it, so I wouldn't know the best quotes to sum it up.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf

I hope you actually read a good portion of it before commenting on it.

Flapjack
August 24th, 2016, 03:52 PM
I was just looking through some news sites and stumbled across a neat bit of information. Apparently, the nonpartisan scientific journal, The New Atlantis (http://www.thenewatlantis.com/), published a recent report regarding sexuality and gender. The basis of the report was analyzing the high amount of mental health issues in LGTB+ community and scientific explanations for transgenderism and sexual attraction. It touched on a lot of issues we have talked about, and was conducted by leading doctors and professionals.

I encourage you all to read it. I'll link it down below. I would add some quotes, but it is better if you read it entirely in context. When I add quotes, people usually just focus on the quote instead of the source material, so no quotes. Plus, its rather long and I haven't finished it, so I wouldn't know the best quotes to sum it up.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf

I hope you actually read a good portion of it before commenting on it.
I skimmed through it buddy, I think asking us to read a 144 page report is a bit much xD Esspecially when a large majority is unrelated. Do you want to quote some of it to support your opinions? Also I do warn you just because it is a scientific report, does not mean I will accept it:P It must pass the scientific process and I may have a problem with what they used to come to their conclusion, eg the sample size.

The parts I have read however I do agree with, such as,

The notion that a two-year-old, having expressed thoughts or behaviors identified with the opposite sex, can be labeled
for life as transgender has absolutely no support in science. Indeed, it is
iniquitous to believe that all children who have gender-atypical thoughts
]or behavior at some point in their development, particularly before
puberty, should be encouraged to become transgender

Vlerchan
August 24th, 2016, 04:42 PM
Also I do warn you just because it is a scientific report, does not mean I will accept itk
It's not a scientific report. It's a lit-review of the psychology literature, hosted inside a bioethics journal.

---

I haven't read the whole thing, but from just skimming, I am put-off by it's seemingly disingenuous portrayal of the literature surrounding homosexuality being innate.

Flapjack
August 24th, 2016, 04:50 PM
It's not a scientific report. It's a lit-review of the psychology literature, hosted inside a bioethics journal.

I could tell it was not a scientific report but I thought it was reputable authors opinion on a variety of different reports. I looked at the PH.D after one of their names and thought they was legit, last time I do that xD

I looked into the first author stated and it seems he is out to disprove that gay people are born that way and that trans people are locked into the wrong bodies. He might have real research to prove it but tbh it seems like he is purposefully misreading and twisting stuff to prove his agenda.

Apparently next year when I go to uni I will have to be looking through loads of scientific reports so tbh it is a good thing I fell for this XD
I am put-off by it's seemingly disingenuous portrayal of the literature surrounding homosexuality being innate.
That's why I wanted him to give a specific quote so I could look into the claims.

Vlerchan
August 24th, 2016, 05:09 PM
I looked at the PH.D after one of their names and thought they was legit, last time I do that xD
It probably is legit: economics researchers do lit-reviews, too (they're actually really handy when, sometimes, the connection between a number of papers might not be clear). I'm just saying there's no scientifically-verifiable claims of their own being made.

Apparently next year when I go to uni I will have to be looking through loads of scientific reports so tbh it is a good thing I fell for this XD
I thought this, too. You realise pretty early on though that no-one does the extracurricular reading :P.

dxcxdzv
August 24th, 2016, 06:15 PM
omg literally the kind of things used by Conservapedia.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Sex_change_theory

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders

Heil Reagan!

Flapjack
August 24th, 2016, 06:56 PM
omg literally the kind of things used by Conservapedia.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Sex_change_theory

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders

Heil Reagan!
I love the way they try to make it look like wikipedia xD

candorgen
August 24th, 2016, 07:49 PM
I was just looking through some news sites and stumbled across a neat bit of information. Apparently, the nonpartisan scientific journal, The New Atlantis (http://www.thenewatlantis.com/), published a recent report regarding sexuality and gender. The basis of the report was analyzing the high amount of mental health issues in LGTB+ community and scientific explanations for transgenderism and sexual attraction. It touched on a lot of issues we have talked about, and was conducted by leading doctors and professionals.

I encourage you all to read it. I'll link it down below. I would add some quotes, but it is better if you read it entirely in context. When I add quotes, people usually just focus on the quote instead of the source material, so no quotes. Plus, its rather long and I haven't finished it, so I wouldn't know the best quotes to sum it up.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf

I hope you actually read a good portion of it before commenting on it.

I will both read and comment on it, thanks for the link.


omg literally the kind of things used by Conservapedia.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Sex_change_theory

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Murders

Heil Reagan!

I didn't even know this website was a thing :S

The more I know!


Flapjack DriveAlive

I'm back with my alternate POV again. Here's more to my view that transgender people's minds don't have to be seen as being in the wrong body:


So you telling me you came out of the womb with male plumbing, you have male chromosomes and you look like a dude but you are really a female? There is something wrong, buddy. [...] For example if I think my Motorola phone is an iPhone, which it obviously isn't because it's a Motorola, it does not make it an iPhone.

(I'm suspending some views for giving you the floor here.)

Let me presume that you see maleness to be of appearance and personality (correct me if I am wrong).


If we're to make a gender comparison between the last pair of human chromosomes (of the 23 pair scientific model so you know what I mean) in a certain person's body, and of all or some certain personality traits of that person, then we'll have to be seeing a relationship of necessary coincidence between e.g. XY chromosomes of a body, and certain personality traits of the associated person 'in' that body.

This is the only way it is going to make any sense to see a quality that both XX/XY chromosomes and personality traits have in common (big organic molecules and human behaviours), which we call gender, as you are doing.

I imagine that you call XY chromosomes 'male' because of what you see to be their constant conjunction within the bodies of male people. You extend the label from personality to genetics, justified by seeing a necessary conjunction of these certain genetic forms and certain personality forms.

You are not called male because you have male chromosomes, your XY chromosomes are called male because your personality is.


In other words (as example):

If a certain human body has XY chromosomes, then it is necessary that that human body's associated mind will have a certain set of thoughts+feelings that manifest certain personal and social roles/acts (the personality traits).

You get me? If male of genes, then male of personality.


What is needed now is what would be on that list of certain personality traits for a person, which always and only happen if that person's associated body has XY chromosomes.

You are open to demonstrate here (with sources if you want, preferably) what it is about XY chromosomes that make them produce certain personality traits of a male person, that XX chromosomes necessarily cannot produce, and vice versa.

If you're to put the XX/XY chromosomes and certain behaviours / personality traits together in the same label of gender, then you need to show concretely how and where this happens. Otherwise your POV doesn't make any sense.

That's how I'd do it best anyway, if I had a contrasting POV in this thread instead of the one I set earlier (and generally here in VT).


Good luck when it comes to intersex people though, e.g. XXY, XYY.

(Are we going to talk about intersex people?)

- - - - - - - -


Just because you think something is something doesn't make it so.

Right, but you can apply that on yourself too - you're not justified to be male, just because you think you are male. I imagine that your defence is something like what I set above.

Bull
August 24th, 2016, 08:12 PM
It only takes two letters to answer this question: NO!
Is heterosexualism a mental disorder? Is homosexualism a mental disorder?
THE ANSWER IS AN UNEQUIVITAL NO!

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 25th, 2016, 11:57 AM
I could tell it was not a scientific report but I thought it was reputable authors opinion on a variety of different reports. I looked at the PH.D after one of their names and thought they was legit, last time I do that xD

I looked into the first author stated and it seems he is out to disprove that gay people are born that way and that trans people are locked into the wrong bodies. He might have real research to prove it but tbh it seems like he is purposefully misreading and twisting stuff to prove his agenda.

Apparently next year when I go to uni I will have to be looking through loads of scientific reports so tbh it is a good thing I fell for this XD

That's why I wanted him to give a specific quote so I could look into the claims.

Well, did you actually read it or just glance at the cover. It sounds like you just glanced at it and dismissed it as you didn't want to read something that would challenge your views. I read and researched your scientific reports, I hope you respect me enough to do the same.:D

You keep saying that doctors and other professionals are the end all, be all source of truth on this matter. That the doctors you keep citing are always right and they have no intention to push a political opinion or personal bias. When I challenged those claims as supporting personal bias, you said that they were professionals and that doctors basically are always right.;)

Yet when doctors who disagree with your opinion come out, you reject them as pushing political agendas and twisting the truth, even though you admitted you didn't even read the evidence they had. Do I smell hypocrisy? I think I do.:P

Open your mind to opposing views, and you may learn a thing or two.:D

dxcxdzv
August 25th, 2016, 12:02 PM
PlasmaHam

I don't even see in what this so called report challenges any of FlapJack's ideas.

Voice_Of_Unreason
August 25th, 2016, 12:08 PM
PlasmaHam

I don't even see in what this so called report challenges any of FlapJack's ideas.

FlapJack admitted that the report might have proof that transgenderism is a mental disorder, yet he doesn't plan to read it because he think it is biased or whatever. I would atleast like him to read a good portion of it before ranting about it.

Flapjack
August 25th, 2016, 12:28 PM
Well, did you actually read it or just glance at the cover. It sounds like you just glanced at it and dismissed it as you didn't want to read something that would challenge your views. I read and researched your scientific reports, I hope you respect me enough to do the same.:D

I skimmed though it and searched the word transgender and read some sections related to it. I didn't send you a 144 page scientific report, I sent you a 2 page paragraph that included an explanation of why.

So can you take quotes from it?

You keep saying that doctors and other professionals are the end all, be all source of truth on this matter. That the doctors you keep citing are always right and they have no intention to push a political opinion or personal bias. When I challenged those claims as supporting personal bias, you said that they were professionals and that doctors basically are always right.:wink:

I researched one of the authors, you dismissed it because it disagreed with you, claiming doctors were bias.


Yet when doctors who disagree with your opinion come out, you reject them as pushing political agendas and twisting the truth, even though you admitted you didn't even read the evidence they had. Do I smell hypocrisy? I think I do.:tongue:

Open your mind to opposing views, and you may learn a thing or two.:biggrin2:
I am actually very open minded buddy!! I grew up very conservative, more conservative than you actually:P I wouldn't dismiss material just because it opposes mine :)
FlapJack admitted that the report might have proof that transgenderism is a mental disorder, yet he doesn't plan to read it because he think it is biased or whatever. I would atleast like him to read a good portion of it before ranting about it.
No I did not lol xD

dxcxdzv
August 25th, 2016, 12:28 PM
FlapJack admitted that the report might have proof that transgenderism is a mental disorder, yet he doesn't plan to read it because he think it is biased or whatever. I would atleast like him to read a good portion of it before ranting about it.
This far I haven't seen anything saying that transgender is a mental disorder in itself.
However they talk about gender dysphoria, which is the associated mental disorder.

jamie_n5
August 28th, 2016, 06:51 PM
I think transgender is the same as any other sexuality. You are born into it. The big thing about transgender is that you were put into the wrong body. Transgender just has to be the hardest sexuality issue to deal with. There are so numerous obstacles to face.

nwtnguy
August 29th, 2016, 06:07 AM
Abosolutely not

candorgen
August 29th, 2016, 12:05 PM
PlasmaHam

I read the report; I'm taking this from the conclusion section to see if the bold text is specifically what you wanted to show from it.

While non-heterosexual and transgender individuals are often subject to social stressors and discrimination, science has not shown that these factors alone account for the entirety, or even a majority, of the health disparity between non-heterosexual and transgender subpopulations and the general population. There is a need for extensive research in this area to test the social stress hypothesis and other potential explanations for the health disparities, and to help identify ways of addressing the health concerns present in these subpopulations.

Some of the most widely held views about sexual orientation, such as
the “born that way” hypothesis, simply are not supported by science. The
literature in this area does describe a small ensemble of biological differences between non-heterosexuals and heterosexuals, but those biological differences are not sufficient to predict sexual orientation, the ultimate test of any scientific finding. The strongest statement that science offers to explain sexual orientation is that some biological factors appear, to an unknown extent, to predispose some individuals to a non-heterosexual orientation.

The suggestion that we are “born that way” is more complex in the case of gender identity. In one sense, the evidence that we are born with a given gender seems well supported by direct observation: males overwhelmingly identify as men and females as women. The fact that children are (with a few exceptions of intersex individuals) born either biologically male or female is beyond debate. The biological sexes play complementary roles in reproduction, and there are a number of population-level average physiological and psychological differences between the sexes. However,
while biological sex is an innate feature of human beings, gender identity
is a more elusive concept.

Yet despite the scientific uncertainty, drastic interventions are prescribed and delivered to patients identifying, or identified, as transgender.
This is especially troubling when the patients receiving these interventions are children. We read popular reports about plans for medical and surgical interventions for many prepubescent children, some as young as
six, and other therapeutic approaches undertaken for children as young as two. We suggest that no one can determine the gender identity of a two-year-old. We have reservations about how well scientists understand
what it even means for a child to have a developed sense of his or her gender, but notwithstanding that issue, we are deeply alarmed that these
therapies, treatments, and surgeries seem disproportionate to the severity of the distress being experienced by these young people, and are at any rate premature since the majority of children who identify as the gender opposite their biological sex will not continue to do so as adults.
Moreover, there is a lack of reliable studies on the long-term effects of these interventions. We strongly urge caution in this regard.

The text in italics is what I want to bring up too.

It's bizarre for me that, if you're centrally going with the italic text above, that you were making such points before that I went on a long reply responding to. It appears like the metaphorical goalposts are being moved, such that transgenderism is always being opposed.