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Flapjack
August 6th, 2016, 04:08 PM
Heyyy guys! Jack is bored debating tax and skygods so I thought I would make a new debate and as I was talking to a few members recently about gender neutral bathrooms and where transsexual people should go, I thought this would be a good new debate:)

Jack's opinions: I think that gender neutral bathrooms for everyone really and we should install them everywhere. They're good for families and the trans community :)

If however there are no gender neutral bathrooms, those in the trans community should obviously be allowed to go wherever they want!

What do you guys think?

Porpoise101
August 6th, 2016, 04:21 PM
Yes.

Flapjack
August 6th, 2016, 04:25 PM
Yes.
Yes to what?xD

Porpoise101
August 6th, 2016, 04:28 PM
Yes to what?xD
It's good. It might cost a lot to retrofit everything, but new buildings could start using them.

Flapjack
August 6th, 2016, 04:41 PM
It's good. It might cost a lot to retrofit everything, but new buildings could start using them.
Yeah that's what I think:)

Just JT
August 6th, 2016, 04:59 PM
What I think is that we simply don't assign gender anything to restrooms. Redesign all restroom to accomidate everyone. Male female, transgender, and families.

It will be better security for the kids, and the families will have a private section for that, and individuals with a penis can use a urinal if they choose to, or use a stahl if they want to. This day and age it really doesn't matter IMO as people are all there for the same basic 2 reasons. And what we're doing in there, or in a stahl with a closed door is really no secret. Neither is washing hands after.

candorgen
August 6th, 2016, 05:47 PM
I agree in that bathrooms should not be different according to biological sex. It greatly simplifies things.

(The shortest ROTW first thread response I've done in a while :D)

Leprous
August 6th, 2016, 09:51 PM
Simply said, yes. I agree with all the others here so far. Like, I don't get why people make a fuss around it all. Let someone be whatever gender they want to be. Everyone has this right and nobody or nothing (a bathroom) has the right to take this part of someone's personality away.

Phosphene
August 6th, 2016, 10:15 PM
I agree with all the above responses. And sure it might cost a lot to re-model establishments but it would be worth it.

...debating tax and skygods....

This is why you don't see me in ROTW that often :lol:

Arkansasguy
August 6th, 2016, 11:02 PM
Heyyy guys! Jack is bored debating tax and skygods so I thought I would make a new debate and as I was talking to a few members recently about gender neutral bathrooms and where transsexual people should go, I thought this would be a good new debate:)

Jack's opinions: I think that gender neutral bathrooms for everyone really and we should install them everywhere. They're good for families and the trans community :)

If however there are no gender neutral bathrooms, those in the trans community should obviously be allowed to go wherever they want!

What do you guys think?

Men should not be allowed in women's restrooms.

For the same reason, there shouldn't be neutral restrooms.

Uniquemind
August 7th, 2016, 01:00 AM
Well I'll admit I have mixed feelings on this issue.

Overall, I don't think it is that big of a deal, a bathroom is a bathroom.

But making all of them neutral especially in schools does take away a "safe sanctuary" effect each gender relies on.

I can't tell you how many times I have or have witnessed a girl helping out another girl in a restroom for a feminine reason.

It's a same premise about why we separate puberty for boys and puberty for girls on these forums.

So yes I am conflicted about this despite it's trivial effect in the grand scheme of things in life.

Are boys respectful enough especially during school age years to warrant sharing the same bathroom facilities?

How does it impact the dynamic of bullying? For better or worse?

But for those who are transgender for them identifying with a specific gender, and needing societies acknowledgement of what they identify with just to feel good self-esteem, and safe...how do you reconcile that?

This a trade off debate.

Vlerchan
August 7th, 2016, 07:11 PM
Yes, like Porpoise.

PlasmaHam
August 7th, 2016, 07:14 PM
Simply said, yes. I agree with all the others here so far. Like, I don't get why people make a fuss around it all. Let someone be whatever gender they want to be. Everyone has this right and nobody or nothing (a bathroom) has the right to take this part of someone's personality away.

Biology is just a social construct set upon us by the white patriarchy! Today, I declare myself a black man and if you say that I'm not, you're racist! Humanity has evolved pass basic common sense and science to this era of feelings! Generation Snowflake has done so much for the world! Kennedy will be remembered as the president who put a man on the moon, and Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.

Vlerchan
August 7th, 2016, 07:17 PM
Biology is just a social construct set upon us by the white patriarchy!
We're not discussing their biology, we're discussing their social roles.

Humanity has evolved pass basic common sense and science to this era of feelings!
I am surprised this follow-up managed to be even more irrelevant.

Generation Snowflake has done so much for the world! Kennedy will be remembered as the president who put a man on the moon, and Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.
It was Nixon who put a man on the moon, Kennedy significantly boosted revenue to NASA, I guess, though.

Fleek
August 7th, 2016, 07:21 PM
I don't really like to use public restrooms at all. Most are dirty >.>

Leprous
August 7th, 2016, 07:31 PM
Biology is just a social construct set upon us by the white patriarchy! Today, I declare myself a black man and if you say that I'm not, you're racist! Humanity has evolved pass basic common sense and science to this era of feelings! Generation Snowflake has done so much for the world! Kennedy will be remembered as the president who put a man on the moon, and Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.

So your point being...?

WhoWhatWhen
August 7th, 2016, 07:41 PM
I think that you should be able to go into whatever restroom you identify with. I don't care who would be peeing in the stall next to me! Gender neutral restrooms are fine with me as well. I don't see why its such a big deal to have someone who is trans/opposite gender than you in the same public restroom. People need to get over it. :yes:

phuckphace
August 7th, 2016, 08:00 PM
what if someone like me sexually identifies as the next Hitler? do I get my own bathroom fitted with gas lines?

also some conservative activist group recently erected (lel/lmao) a billboard in my town that says "Men don't belong in women's restrooms!" :lol3: while spending all that money for a billboard rental in exchange for zero minds changed seems like a bit of a pointless gesture (Kulturkampf) it is rather telling how care and mad it gets the Left, so 10/10 overall

mattsmith48
August 7th, 2016, 08:54 PM
Im not a big fan of the gender neutral bathroom idea because it can be make someone uncomfortable to see someone of the opposite sex walk in the same bathroom thats why we have two different ones. That being said transgenders should be able to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with.

Uniquemind
August 7th, 2016, 09:20 PM
Biology is just a social construct set upon us by the white patriarchy! Today, I declare myself a black man and if you say that I'm not, you're racist! Humanity has evolved pass basic common sense and science to this era of feelings! Generation Snowflake has done so much for the world! Kennedy will be remembered as the president who put a man on the moon, and Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.

I think you mean gender is a social construct, biology is slightly different.

jamie_n5
August 7th, 2016, 09:37 PM
I am in favor of gender neutral bathrooms would be alright. I am more in favor of transgender people being able to chose the bathroom they feel most comfortable with.

mattsmith48
August 7th, 2016, 11:06 PM
Biology is just a social construct set upon us by the white patriarchy! Today, I declare myself a black man and if you say that I'm not, you're racist! Humanity has evolved pass basic common sense and science to this era of feelings! Generation Snowflake has done so much for the world! Kennedy will be remembered as the president who put a man on the moon, and Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.

Yes Obama is telling guys to go in the ladies bathroom.

Uniquemind
August 8th, 2016, 01:15 AM
So is anybody going to respond to my last points made in the last post?

That the effect of such a bathroom policy change would affect different maturity groups differently?

Like I think in the public world it might not be such a big deal, but within schools where immaturity levels are high and drama
happens often is the situation different?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 04:40 AM
Men should not be allowed in women's restrooms.

For the same reason, there shouldn't be neutral restrooms.
Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.
No it is transphobic conservatives that will put men in the women's bathroom.
Would you like this man in the women's bathroom?
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-02/2/16/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-19158-1454450316-16.jpg
Or this man?
http://67.media.tumblr.com/b7e4bd936ff6792b3ea3193c16cab1f0/tumblr_inline_nrjhcycOXm1qatkhx_500.jpg
How about this man?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2b/56/60/2b56603c8737a22de3af2f253caa0a40.jpg

Putting these men into the women's bathroom would cause distress. Gender neutral bathrooms are the way forward but forcing men and women into the bathrooms of the sex they were born as is ridiculous, harmful and dangerous.

There are also masculine women being harassed because of this attack on the trans communities bathroom rights.

For guys that love shouting about freedom, you seem very passionate about taking away other people's freedom.

AussieNicholas
August 8th, 2016, 05:16 AM
I used to be undecided on gender neutral bathrooms, but I think they're the most beneficial option. One of the concerns of making all bathrooms gender neutral is that any pervert could walk into whatever bathroom they want. While gender neutral bathrooms might use up a lot of time and money, I think it'll be better off for everyone overall, since everyone's getting a choice.

I, personally, would feel very awkward if someone who was biologically female using the same bathroom as me, and I think plenty of women would too, so having a third bathroom that is gender neutral would give more options to everyone.

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 11:05 AM
Men should not be allowed in women's restrooms.

For the same reason, there shouldn't be neutral restrooms.

I presume that your reason is because of risk of rape, but I don't know, so clarity would help.


Well I'll admit I have mixed feelings on this issue.

Overall, I don't think it is that big of a deal, a bathroom is a bathroom.

But making all of them neutral especially in schools does take away a "safe sanctuary" effect each gender relies on.

I can't tell you how many times I have or have witnessed a girl helping out another girl in a restroom for a feminine reason.

It's a same premise about why we separate puberty for boys and puberty for girls on these forums.

So yes I am conflicted about this despite it's trivial effect in the grand scheme of things in life.

Are boys respectful enough especially during school age years to warrant sharing the same bathroom facilities?

How does it impact the dynamic of bullying? For better or worse?

But for those who are transgender for them identifying with a specific gender, and needing societies acknowledgement of what they identify with just to feel good self-esteem, and safe...how do you reconcile that?

This a trade off debate.

So is anybody going to respond to my last points made in the last post?

That the effect of such a bathroom policy change would affect different maturity groups differently?

Like I think in the public world it might not be such a big deal, but within schools where immaturity levels are high and drama
happens often is the situation different?

Good point. Perhaps it would be better to keep the male-female bathroom system in schools, up to an certain age.

What would your thoughts be on a male-female-neutral bathroom system?


Biology is just a social construct set upon us by the white patriarchy! Today, I declare myself a black man and if you say that I'm not, you're racist! Humanity has evolved pass basic common sense and science to this era of feelings! Generation Snowflake has done so much for the world! Kennedy will be remembered as the president who put a man on the moon, and Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.

what if someone like me sexually identifies as the next Hitler? do I get my own bathroom fitted with gas lines?

Discussing gender-neutral bathrooms does not have to entirely mean bringing the topic of transgender people into this.

It could also just mean... just having bathrooms where gender is irrelevant. Sure, transgender people are bound to come up, but as something now relevant in this, rather than the entire motivation for this topic in the first place.


also some conservative activist group recently erected (lel/lmao) a billboard in my town that says "Men don't belong in women's restrooms!" :lol3: while spending all that money for a billboard rental in exchange for zero minds changed seems like a bit of a pointless gesture (Kulturkampf) it is rather telling how care and mad it gets the Left, so 10/10 overall

If the intention behind the billboards was to get the 'Left' fired up and bring some people across to their POV, and it worked in getting a reaction from the 'Left' sometimes (not all the time), then all it shows is that the people behind the billboard half succeeded.


Im not a big fan of the gender neutral bathroom idea because it can be make someone uncomfortable to see someone of the opposite sex walk in the same bathroom thats why we have two different ones.


I, personally, would feel very awkward if someone who was biologically female using the same bathroom as me, and I think plenty of women would too[...]


Could a good proportion of the feelings of gender-neutral bathrooms be motivated by a societal awkwardness of being in a situation with the opposite sex, where the aspects of that sex are more easily brought to mind?
(As an example apart from gender-neutral bathrooms, men being in the lingerie section of supermarkets/malls.)

mattsmith48
August 8th, 2016, 11:52 AM
Could a good proportion of the feelings of gender-neutral bathrooms be motivated by a societal awkwardness of being in a situation with the opposite sex, where the aspects of that sex are more easily brought to mind?
(As an example apart from gender-neutral bathrooms, men being in the lingerie section of supermarkets/malls.)

I think thats is the primary reason why there is opposition to gender-neutral bathroom.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 11:55 AM
I used to be undecided on gender neutral bathrooms, but I think they're the most beneficial option. One of the concerns of making all bathrooms gender neutral is that any pervert could walk into whatever bathroom they want. While gender neutral bathrooms might use up a lot of time and money, I think it'll be better off for everyone overall, since everyone's getting a choice.

I, personally, would feel very awkward if someone who was biologically female using the same bathroom as me, and I think plenty of women would too, so having a third bathroom that is gender neutral would give more options to everyone.
I don't think the third bathroom idea is a very practical solution as building and maintaining a bathroom for a few people would not be popular with those designing new buildings.

I think we should convert old m&f bathrooms into gender neutral bathrooms. This is also more practical as sometimes you get the male and female bathrooms in completely different locations.

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 01:16 PM
I think thats is the primary reason why there is opposition to gender-neutral bathroom.

I believe so too. It is a reaction going on at a societal level.

Arkansasguy
August 8th, 2016, 01:27 PM
I presume that your reason is because of risk of rape, but I don't know, so clarity would help.






Good point. Perhaps it would be better to keep the male-female bathroom system in schools, up to an certain age.

What would your thoughts be on a male-female-neutral bathroom system?






Discussing gender-neutral bathrooms does not have to entirely mean bringing the topic of transgender people into this.

It could also just mean... just having bathrooms where gender is irrelevant. Sure, transgender people are bound to come up, but as something now relevant in this, rather than the entire motivation for this topic in the first place.




If the intention behind the billboards was to get the 'Left' fired up and bring some people across to their POV, and it worked in getting a reaction from the 'Left' sometimes (not all the time), then all it shows is that the people behind the billboard half succeeded.







Could a good proportion of the feelings of gender-neutral bathrooms be motivated by a societal awkwardness of being in a situation with the opposite sex, where the aspects of that sex are more easily brought to mind?
(As an example apart from gender-neutral bathrooms, men being in the lingerie section of supermarkets/malls.)

Yes, rape and vouyerism.

mattsmith48
August 8th, 2016, 03:01 PM
Yes, rape and vouyerism.

Ah yes nothing can turn someone on more than seeing someone else pee or take a shit and than how are you suppose to get rid of your boner.

Seriously thoRape in public bathroom almost never happens also men can rape other men in a public bathroom too, or worst kids. We should be more worry about a catholic preist being in a public bathroom with a kid than a transgender person using the bathroom of the gender they identify as.

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 03:42 PM
Yes, rape and vouyerism.
You still haven't responded to my post. You just want to oppress transexuals.
Men should not be allowed in women's restrooms.

For the same reason, there shouldn't be neutral restrooms.
Obama as the president who put a guy in the ladies bathroom.
No it is transphobic conservatives that will put men in the women's bathroom.
Would you like this man in the women's bathroom?
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-02/2/16/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-19158-1454450316-16.jpg
Or this man?
http://67.media.tumblr.com/b7e4bd936ff6792b3ea3193c16cab1f0/tumblr_inline_nrjhcycOXm1qatkhx_500.jpg
How about this man?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2b/56/60/2b56603c8737a22de3af2f253caa0a40.jpg

Putting these men into the women's bathroom would cause distress. Gender neutral bathrooms are the way forward but forcing men and women into the bathrooms of the sex they were born as is ridiculous, harmful and dangerous.

There are also masculine women being harassed because of this attack on the trans communities bathroom rights.

For guys that love shouting about freedom, you seem very passionate about taking away other people's freedom.

Dalcourt
August 8th, 2016, 03:54 PM
Last weekend I watched a movie where a transgender person was killed for using the "wrong" bathroom by some Hillbilly guy.
And I thought about this bathroom issue afterwards so I found it kinda hilarious to find this discussion here.

I understand that at least in the beginning gender neutral bathrooms would be kinda strange...it's in our heads that if you are in a public place we have to go to the bathroom separated according to our gender. I'm sure people will get over that in the long run as they usually don't separate like that in private.

I don't think that voyeurism and/or rape will be that much of an issue it happens now, too so if someone is out to do this there would always be a way.

So I'm strongly for introducing gender neutral bathrooms...maybe having the gender separated and a neutral one in the beginning would be the best option so people could adapt to the idea but I feel costs for this would be too high.

PlasmaHam
August 8th, 2016, 04:11 PM
You still haven't responded to my post. You just want to oppress transexuals.


No it is transphobic conservatives that will put men in the women's bathroom.
Would you like this man in the women's bathroom?

Putting these men into the women's bathroom would cause distress. Gender neutral bathrooms are the way forward but forcing men and women into the bathrooms of the sex they were born as is ridiculous, harmful and dangerous.

There are also masculine women being harassed because of this attack on the trans communities bathroom rights.

For guys that love shouting about freedom, you seem very passionate about taking away other people's freedom.

I wouldn't like those women in the man's bathroom. I would like to see them in a mental asylum where they belong. Transgenderism is a mental disorder, but apparently Paraxiom think that discussion is not appropriate here, so I won't go into detail.

How is not making people comfortable taking away their freedoms?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 04:19 PM
I wouldn't like those women in the man's bathroom. I would like to see them in a mental asylum where they belong. Transgenderism is a mental disorder, but apparently Paraxiom think that discussion is not appropriate here, so I won't go into detail.

How is not making people comfortable taking away their freedoms?
What makes you think they have a mental disorder? Because it is unnatural? Same as homosexuals? You saying it is a mental disorder doesn't make it one. Even if it was one, there are not enough spaces in mental hospitals for those that desperately need them and you wish to put even more strain on the mental health issue.

I love how when it comes to guns you're like freedom 'cos America but you won't give people the freedom to go to the bathroom based on the gender they identify as. Ya know it would make many people comfortable if you took the guns away!!

I see why Paraxiom thinks it is not appropriate here but if you're really opposed because of this belief than it is relevant. I think you're a hateful bigot however and are hiding behind this to justify your hate.

Dalcourt
August 8th, 2016, 04:28 PM
I wouldn't like those women in the man's bathroom. I would like to see them in a mental asylum where they belong. Transgenderism is a mental disorder, but apparently Paraxiom think that discussion is not appropriate here, so I won't go into detail.

How is not making people comfortable taking away their freedoms?

And what bathroom should they go to in the mental asylum then? Just wondering.

But since you would freak out if those mentally deranged "ladies" would go to your "gents" bathroom and surely some females would if it was vice versa don't you think some neutral bathrooms would be the best option for all?

DriveAlive
August 8th, 2016, 04:41 PM
This is still an issue I have a great difficulty deciding. On the one hand, everyone is weird and people can do/dress/act however they choose. On the other hand, a law that says that transgenders can use the bathroom they identify with flies in the face of biological reality. I personally do not think the government should be in the business of dictating or interpreting reality in order to placate a group or promote an agenda.

AussieNicholas
August 8th, 2016, 05:35 PM
Could a good proportion of the feelings of gender-neutral bathrooms be motivated by a societal awkwardness of being in a situation with the opposite sex, where the aspects of that sex are more easily brought to mind?
(As an example apart from gender-neutral bathrooms, men being in the lingerie section of supermarkets/malls.)

That's possible. I think we naturally assume most people to be straight until told otherwise, so we're brought up with specific rules on how to interact with the opposite sex. That kind of societal awkwardness would probably be hard to undo quickly (if it's even possible, since we can't police what parents tell their kids), so I think having gender neutral bathrooms alongside male and female bathrooms would make more people happy in both the short and long term.

Uniquemind
August 8th, 2016, 05:39 PM
Part of me says this in jest.

Just break this law and do a don't ask don't tell policy here.

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 05:41 PM
Yes, rape and vouyerism.

Is it justified to not run a different system, because of a minority of people who would harmfully exploit that system?

What prevalence of this rape and voyeurism do you see in this system?



Seriously thoRape in public bathroom almost never happens also men can rape other men in a public bathroom too, or worst kids. We should be more worry about a catholic preist being in a public bathroom than a transgender person using the bathroom of the gender they identify as.

I agree, rape is not restricted to male-attacks-female at all.


You still haven't responded to my post. You just want to oppress transexuals.



[...] but if you're really opposed because of this belief than it is relevant. I think you're a hateful bigot however and are hiding behind this to justify your hate.

In fairness, we can allow each other some breathing space to explain our POVs (before we then probably battle, granted).


I would like to see them in a mental asylum where they belong.

Off I gooooo



Transgenderism is a mental disorder[...]

I allow you to define what a mental disorder is, then.



[...]but apparently Paraxiom think that discussion is not appropriate here, so I won't go into detail.


I see why Paraxiom thinks it is not appropriate here [...]

I did not say that. I said that transgender people are clearly relevant in this topic, but that they are not the only subject to jump onto in this topic.

By all means discuss. I won't bite.


[A] law that says that transgenders can use the bathroom they identify with flies in the face of biological reality. I personally do not think the government should be in the business of dictating or interpreting reality in order to placate a group or promote an agenda.

The thing is though, almost all of us think we see the real reality. So, we each need to make a stand.

It would help to define what is constituting the biological reality in this case, for you.


That's possible. I think we naturally assume most people to be straight until told otherwise, so we're brought up with specific rules on how to interact with the opposite sex. That kind of societal awkwardness would probably be hard to undo quickly (if it's even possible, since we can't police what parents tell their kids), so I think having gender neutral bathrooms alongside male and female bathrooms would make more people happy in both the short and long term.

Unlearning something is more difficult than learning something, here being certain societal norms.

Taking the amount of change seen in the level of acceptance between races and sexualities in the past 50 years (even in the past 10 for the latter), it is an example of how it can happen. The change that happened was fundamentally at a personal level.

DriveAlive
August 8th, 2016, 06:02 PM
The thing is though, almost all of us think we see the real reality. So, we each need to make a stand.

It would help to define what is constituting the biological reality in this case, for you.

For me, biological reality is what the person's physical sex is. I am trying to learn more about "gender identity" and I will admit that I am somewhat ignorant on the topic having never actually discussed it with a transgender person. However, the way I see it now, a person may think of themselves as the opposite gender, but that does not change the reality of their physical gender. Therefore, a government should not try to legislate around this reality.

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 06:09 PM
For me, biological reality is what the person's physical sex is.

Alright then.



I am trying to learn more about "gender identity" and I will admit that I am somewhat ignorant on the topic having never actually discussed it with a transgender person.

You're welcome to here in VT.



However, the way I see it now, a person may think of themselves as the opposite gender, but that does not change the reality of their physical gender. Therefore, a government should not try to legislate around this reality.

Why not though? Even if I take your view that the biological reality is being opposed psychologically, I do not see harm coming of this. The harm is seen in resisting this, rather than letting it happen.

ethan-s
August 8th, 2016, 06:33 PM
Heyyy guys! Jack is bored debating tax and skygods so I thought I would make a new debate and as I was talking to a few members recently about gender neutral bathrooms and where transsexual people should go, I thought this would be a good new debate:)

Jack's opinions: I think that gender neutral bathrooms for everyone really and we should install them everywhere. They're good for families and the trans community :)

If however there are no gender neutral bathrooms, those in the trans community should obviously be allowed to go wherever they want!

What do you guys think?
" good for families " O yeah? you may wanna rethink that. what happens when someone exploits the GN restrooms and rapes someones kid? and don't tell me i'm a right wing fear-mongerer for saying that. After all, Its the left that tells us that the earth will burn up and guns will kill everyone and cops might shoot an innocent thug.


here's what I think; install a single-person "family" restroom at every public place alongside the mens and women's room. the trannys are only allowed in this family room so that there is no chance of offense, rape, or peeking or exploitation. That said, I don't think dudes should be allowed in the females room just because their brain is messed up or because they 'feel' like the opposite sex, and vice versa.

candorgen
August 8th, 2016, 06:54 PM
" good for families " O yeah? you may wanna rethink that. what happens when someone exploits the GN restrooms and rapes someones kid?

What is it about the gender-neutral bathrooms that makes the before-not-a-thing of raping a child, now a thing that can happen? (If I have read this right.)

[...] and don't tell me i'm a right wing fear-mongerer for saying that. After all, Its the left that tells us that the earth will burn up and guns will kill everyone and cops might shoot an innocent thug.

If anything it's the more conservative region of socio-politics who point out the many specific impending dooms to our lives and values. 'Innocent thug' makes no sense. My response is irrelevant though so I will not digress, but I wanted to say it.



here's what I think; install a single-person "family" restroom at every public place alongside the mens and women's room. the trannys are only allowed in this family room so that there is no chance of offense, rape, or peeking or exploitation. That said, I don't think dudes should be allowed in the females room just because their brain is messed up or because they 'feel' like the opposite sex, and vice versa.

You can call me a tranny, but it makes me sound more like a member of a British 70s family romcom where that is my second name.

Do you see the 'trannys' as being more likely to rape and engage in voyeurism?

Flapjack
August 8th, 2016, 07:16 PM
what happens when someone exploits the GN restrooms and rapes someones kid?
Because this can't happen with the current m&f bathrooms? Also, most parents occupancy their young children to public toilets for safety.

here's what I think; install a single-person "family" restroom at every public place alongside the mens and women's room. the trannys are only allowed in this family room so that there is no chance of offense, rape, or peeking or exploitation. That said, I don't think dudes should be allowed in the females room just because their brain is messed up or because they 'feel' like the opposite sex, and vice versa.
I get the feeling you're trying to be offensive and discriminatory by saying the word tranny. This further enforces my point that you're not opposed because of legitimate safety concerns but because you are transphobic.

Also if transexuals are rapist... isn't allocating a family room for them a bad idea? I have already said how having a third bathroom option isn't practical.

I have already said this to others but I will say it to you now.

Would you like this man in the women's bathroom?
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-02/2/16/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-19158-1454450316-16.jpg
Or this man?
http://67.media.tumblr.com/b7e4bd936ff6792b3ea3193c16cab1f0/tumblr_inline_nrjhcycOXm1qatkhx_500.jpg
How about this man?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2b/56/60/2b56603c8737a22de3af2f253caa0a40.jpg

Putting these men into the women's bathroom would cause distress. Gender neutral bathrooms are the way forward but forcing men and women into the bathrooms of the sex they were born as is ridiculous, harmful and dangerous.

There are also masculine women being harassed because of this attack on the trans communities bathroom rights.

For guys that love shouting about freedom, you seem very passionate about taking away other people's freedom.

DriveAlive
August 8th, 2016, 07:27 PM
Alright then.




You're welcome to here in VT.




Why not though? Even if I take your view that the biological reality is being opposed psychologically, I do not see harm coming of this. The harm is seen in resisting this, rather than letting it happen.

I would love to discuss transgenderism more in detail with someone on here who identifies as such because I do want to understand their point of view.

The harm I see coming of it is from improvident legislation, not the actual issue of transgender bathroom rights. By passing laws that deny reality in favor of perceived equality (or however you want to label it) it is setting a dangerous precedent of the government intepreting reality to suit an agenda. I find the notion that the government can legislate a new view of reality to be outside of its purview and should be curtailed.

candorgen
August 9th, 2016, 09:29 AM
I would love to discuss transgenderism more in detail with someone on here who identifies as such because I do want to understand their point of view.

You can in the sexuality+gender subforum, and also here in ROTW if you want. Go ahead!



The harm I see coming of it is from improvident legislation, not the actual issue of transgender bathroom rights. By passing laws that deny reality in favor of perceived equality (or however you want to label it) it is setting a dangerous precedent of the government intepreting reality to suit an agenda. I find the notion that the government can legislate a new view of reality to be outside of its purview and should be curtailed.

This is a very slippery slope to lean on. It can be said that all law is based on a perception of reality, where certain things are right or wrong, with what you're saying. Everything is an agenda then.

If you want to go with biological 'reality', then all law should follow a physics-chemistry-biology template by only legalising what is 'real' by their standards. Even with this though, major areas of the field of sciences are made by, and maintained by, human perceptions and searches for reality/truth.

I don't think you are in favour for a universal physicalist founding of reality, and the entire realm of law being enforced by these standards.


The law is not meant to be set by perceptions of reality.

It is meant to be set by perceptions of what optimally sustains a civilisation of some sort (physically and mentally).

Continuation of large-scale existence is not to be conflated with searching for the truth/reality of existence.


I have ignored the part where you don't see the psychology of transgender people as biological, like the neurobiology part. A major oversight perhaps?


PlasmaHam

I would hope that you are not agreeing to any argument because of them happening to oppose gender-neutral bathrooms due to transgenders.

DriveAlive
August 9th, 2016, 10:02 AM
You can in the sexuality+gender subforum, and also here in ROTW if you want. Go ahead!




This is a very slippery slope to lean on. It can be said that all law is based on a perception of reality, where certain things are right or wrong, with what you're saying. Everything is an agenda then.

If you want to go with biological 'reality', then all law should follow a physics-chemistry-biology template by only legalising what is 'real' by their standards. Even with this though, major areas of the field of sciences are made by, and maintained by, human perceptions and searches for reality/truth.

I don't think you are in favour for a universal physicalist founding of reality, and the entire realm of law being enforced by these standards.


The law is not meant to be set by perceptions of reality.

It is meant to be set by perceptions of what optimally sustains a civilisation of some sort (physically and mentally).

Continuation of large-scale existence is not to be conflated with searching for the truth/reality of existence.


I have ignored the part where you don't see the psychology of transgender people as biological, like the neurobiology part. A major oversight perhaps?


PlasmaHam

I would hope that you are not agreeing to any argument because of them happening to oppose gender-neutral bathrooms due to transgenders.

I understand your point, but I find far too often that this argument is used to excuse a view that is clearly outside of the realm of reality. For example, you can argue that there is a societal perception that drugs are bad and therefore illegal. For the moment, I am not claiming that transgenderism itself is necessarily a false perception, but rather that a law enforcing their perception of gender as truth is wrong. Honestly, I lack sufficient knowledge on the psychology of transgenderism and so I do not feel qualified to comment on the condition. However, I do not see the transgender bathroom rights issue to be equivalent in so-called legislative perception to my example about drugs. It is more similar to gay marriage. There is a perception by some that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, but I find this view to ignore the reality of the fact that marriage is a state-recognized contract between two people. Therefore, trying to legislate against gay marriage falls into the same category of improvident overreach by the government as this issue.

PlasmaHam
August 9th, 2016, 10:17 AM
PlasmaHam

I would hope that you are not agreeing to any argument because of them happening to oppose gender-neutral bathrooms due to transgenders.

Everyone has their bias, so I do lean towards arguments that I like. But the real reason I liked DriveAlive post is not the transgender stuff, but the shared belief in higher law and that the government's role is not to redefine reality.

candorgen
August 9th, 2016, 11:07 AM
I understand your point, but I find far too often that this argument is used to excuse a view that is clearly outside of the realm of reality.

This goes with my view that we are all staking a different claim on what reality there is. My response wanted to lead us off bringing reality into the debate on gender-neutral bathrooms. I feel it justified.

If we want to talk about the govt's role and legislation, then we should be taking a pragmatic angle on this, like cooperation between people. We can forget about what is natural/real in itself, as it is not relevant.



For example, you can argue that there is a societal perception that drugs are bad and therefore illegal. For the moment, I am not claiming that transgenderism itself is necessarily a false perception, but rather that a law enforcing their perception of gender as truth is wrong.

I agree with you, in that laws should not be enforced on perceptions of reality. The laws should instead be enforced on perceptions of what makes people get along the most, and what optimises the wellbeing of everyone involved.



Honestly, I lack sufficient knowledge on the psychology of transgenderism and so I do not feel qualified to comment on the condition. However, I do not see the transgender bathroom rights issue to be equivalent in so-called legislative perception to my example about drugs. It is more similar to gay marriage. There is a perception by some that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, but I find this view to ignore the reality of the fact that marriage is a state-recognized contract between two people. Therefore, trying to legislate against gay marriage falls into the same category of improvident overreach by the government as this issue.

Would you be in favour of what I said above being put into action through scientific experiments? In other words, allow the presence of gender-neutral bathrooms for a 'trial period', through the reasoning and form of implementation that some arguments in favour of them say.


Everyone has their bias, so I do lean towards arguments that I like.

Yes.



But the real reason I liked DriveAlive post is not the transgender stuff, but the shared belief in higher law and that the government's role is not to redefine reality.

Alright. I hope then that we can agree that the govt's role is not to bring in definitons/perceptions of reality, but rather that which optimally sustains the existence and physical/mental wellbeing of a population.

mattsmith48
August 10th, 2016, 10:24 AM
" good for families " O yeah? you may wanna rethink that. what happens when someone exploits the GN restrooms and rapes someones kid? and don't tell me i'm a right wing fear-mongerer for saying that. After all, Its the left that tells us that the earth will burn up and guns will kill everyone and cops might shoot an innocent thug.

Rape can happen between to people of the same sex and childmolesting can happen in a regular bathroom. I joked earlier about not allowing Catholic preist in public bathroom, but a kid could get raped in a public bathroom, like a fake transgender person just going in the women room to rape or just take a peek. theres actually is more chance that a kid would be raped in a bathroom. Yes theres some fucked up people out there for who its a turn on to see a woman take a shit, but vast majority of men find that disgusting and dont want to think about it happening. Its not fear-mongering if its the reallity like when you say were making this planet unhabitable stop puting shit in the atmosphere, or if you dont have gun control more people will die from gun violence or the republican nominee for president of the US might start WWIII those arent fear-mongering because its true saying that transgender do it just to rape and peek in the womens room is fear-mongering because its not true and it never happens

Jane Eyre
August 10th, 2016, 01:16 PM
Well I'll admit I have mixed feelings on this issue.

Overall, I don't think it is that big of a deal, a bathroom is a bathroom.

But making all of them neutral especially in schools does take away a "safe sanctuary" effect each gender relies on.

I can't tell you how many times I have or have witnessed a girl helping out another girl in a restroom for a feminine reason.

It's a same premise about why we separate puberty for boys and puberty for girls on these forums.

So yes I am conflicted about this despite it's trivial effect in the grand scheme of things in life.

Are boys respectful enough especially during school age years to warrant sharing the same bathroom facilities?

How does it impact the dynamic of bullying? For better or worse?

But for those who are transgender for them identifying with a specific gender, and needing societies acknowledgement of what they identify with just to feel good self-esteem, and safe...how do you reconcile that?

This a trade off debate.

I agree. In Eastern countries, where transgenderism is still considered a taboo, I don't think gender neutral bathrooms is a great idea. Like, our society generally associates them with the female population and so, they can easily access 'feminine' things without any hue and cry.
Moreover, gender neutral bathrooms may create problems for women, like privacy concerns and the like. Especially for teenage girls in co-ed schools.

Stronk Serb
August 10th, 2016, 02:58 PM
You guys focus too much on the LGBT. Like what percent ld the population they form? 10%? Less? Screw them, focus on stuff which will benefit everyone. For all I care both the pro-gay people and the "bigots" can die in a fire and make the world a better place. Just stop.

dxcxdzv
August 10th, 2016, 03:14 PM
You guys focus too much on the LGBT. Like what percent ld the population they form? 10%? Less? Screw them, focus on stuff which will benefit everyone. For all I care both the pro-gay people and the "bigots" can die in a fire and make the world a better place. Just stop.
I search and I search... but I see no valid reasoning behind those words.

Porpoise101
August 10th, 2016, 03:17 PM
You guys focus too much on the LGBT. Like what percent ld the population they form? 10%? Less? Screw them, focus on stuff which will benefit everyone. For all I care both the pro-gay people and the "bigots" can die in a fire and make the world a better place. Just stop.
Helping out minorities helps everyone. By ensuring equality of opportunity and accommodation, everyone can perform to their best and help out society to their best ability.

Stronk Serb
August 10th, 2016, 04:14 PM
I search and I search... but I see no valid reasoning behind those words.

I am just sick and tired of both sides and would kindly like both of them to shut up.

Helping out minorities helps everyone. By ensuring equality of opportunity and accommodation, everyone can perform to their best and help out society to their best ability.

And how much sense does it make? How will it increase productivness if you give trans people a choice where to pee in public? Like what percent of their lives does a person spend in a public bathroom for it to really count? I could understand for a school because of bullying or workplace, you do spend a third of your day for years there.

Porpoise101
August 10th, 2016, 04:20 PM
I am just sick and tired of both sides and would kindly like both of them to shut up.

It is your choice to listen.

And how much sense does it make? How will it increase productivness if you give trans people a choice where to pee in public? Like what percent of their lives does a person spend in a public bathroom for it to really count? I could understand for a school because of bullying or workplace, you do spend a third of your day for years there.
The bullying is one thing I was thinking of. The other way I figured it would help is that it would make them less stressed out, giving them less health issues. I will concede that bathrooms are a marginal issue at best. LGBT protections are most needed right now in schools and workplaces like you said.

Stronk Serb
August 10th, 2016, 04:25 PM
It is your choice to listen.

The bullying is one thing I was thinking of. The other way I figured it would help is that it would make them less stressed out, giving them less health issues. I will concede that bathrooms are a marginal issue at best. LGBT protections are most needed right now in schools and workplaces like you said.

Bathrooms are marginal, I mean how did trans people use them before? They broke the law, but nobody knew. I do not think you should be proud of your sexuality, but should not be ashamed of it. Same goes for nations and religions, it's okay to like it and stuff, but don't shove it down people how you are a Serb/American/Christian/homosexual/vegan as if it's important.

candorgen
August 10th, 2016, 05:15 PM
You guys focus too much on the LGBT.

Within the frame of this thread, not involving the T of LGBT would not make much sense (even if involving LGBT to oppose it).


Like what percent ld the population they form? 10%? Less?

Yes, judging the importance of a demographic solely by the proportion of the population that is it, makes so much sense.

Just like you do with the terrorists. :rolleyes:

(Please do respond like phuckphace did to this, if you want. It would be something at least...)


Screw them, focus on stuff which will benefit everyone.

Are you saying something like this?

"if X does not benefit everyone in a population, then X is not important."

That narrows down basically everything except shelter, water, food and essential tools to get them. Let us return to the stone age. I mean no offense to that era at all by the way, but let us be consistent here, shall we?


For all I care both the pro-gay people and the "bigots" can die in a fire and make the world a better place. Just stop.

If we were in the stone age without such ideas as these in the first place, then perhaps...


I am just sick and tired of both sides and would kindly like both of them to shut up.

It doesn't have to mean wanting to see all of them burn.



And how much sense does it make? How will it increase productivness if you give trans people a choice where to pee in public?

Literally, there is then twice the 'amount of bathroom' for everyone.



Like what percent of their lives does a person spend in a public bathroom for it to really count?

Judgement can and does occur quickly, along with attacks, generally.


I could understand for a school because of bullying or workplace, you do spend a third of your day for years there.

Not sure what you mean here.


Bathrooms are marginal, I mean how did trans people use them before? They broke the law, but nobody knew. I do not think you should be proud of your sexuality, but should not be ashamed of it. Same goes for nations and religions, it's okay to like it and stuff, but don't shove it down people how you are a Serb/American/Christian/homosexual/vegan as if it's important.

The law with bathrooms should (like all law) be formed on what optimally sustains a population, physically and mentally.

rioo
August 13th, 2016, 01:03 AM
I think it's better to have locked door restroom with gender sign on outside. And when someone pass the door it will change automaticaly.
Maybe it's a new Gender screening technology. Haha.

Flapjack
August 13th, 2016, 01:20 AM
I think it's better to have locked door restroom with gender sign on outside. And when someone pass the door it will change automaticaly.
Maybe it's a new Gender screening technology. Haha.
I don't understand? Are you for or against gender neutral bathrooms?

Dalcourt
August 13th, 2016, 03:51 AM
I don't understand? Are you for or against gender neutral bathrooms?

I guess more like for a bathroom that adapts to respective gender? However thus would work.

Just JT
August 13th, 2016, 05:09 AM
Why do we need gender specific bathrooms in the first place. All we're doing is teaching young kids that people are all different, which they are, and should never be seen unless fully clothed.

Let's just have 1 larger "restroom". With "X" number of stalls, "X" of urinals, a section to change diapers etc, family area if you need to call it that. People are all up in arms about this, and worried about kids being in a bathroom without their parents with who ever. This way everyones in the same room, doing the same thing. Which is pretty natural btw. Safety is in numbers here, and better supervision of everyone

Atom
August 13th, 2016, 08:29 AM
Just make small rooms that have 1 sink and 1 toilet in them. You come in, you close the door from the inside and whatever you have in your pants can deal with having a toilet.
How is this even a problem?

Just JT
August 13th, 2016, 09:17 AM
Just make small rooms that have 1 sink and 1 toilet in them. You come in, you close the door from the inside and whatever you have in your pants can deal with having a toilet.
How is this even a problem?


Not all building have the space for those kinda bathrooms. That's why we have public bathrooms, to save space.

Flapjack
August 13th, 2016, 09:23 AM
I guess more like for a bathroom that adapts to respective gender? However thus would work.
I think he was trolling tbh.

Dalcourt
August 13th, 2016, 09:30 AM
I think he was trolling tbh.

Yep me too just wanted to think about an explanation

rioo
August 13th, 2016, 09:24 PM
I don't understand? Are you for or against gender neutral bathrooms?

no, I mean if some old building having problem for new bahtroom space then they can use locked door.

Flapjack
August 13th, 2016, 09:26 PM
no, I mean if some old building having problem for new bahtroom space then they can use locked door.
Locked door?

rioo
August 13th, 2016, 09:34 PM
Locked door?

yeah, and put sign outside whre people can see if its used for specifict gender.

Flapjack
August 13th, 2016, 09:35 PM
yeah, and put sign outside whre people can see if its used for specifict gender.
So bathrooms separated by biological sex?

ThisBougieLife
August 16th, 2016, 04:58 PM
I originally thought that I would find using a gender-neutral bathroom uncomfortable, but then I realized it's public bathrooms in general that I find uncomfortable. Using one that could potentially have two people of different genders in them didn't make public bathrooms any more or less "appealing" to me. It hardly felt different.

I understand why they are kept separate, but I wouldn't die if they weren't.

Uniquemind
August 17th, 2016, 01:58 AM
I'm surprised that nobody raised the solution to the fear of gender neutral bathrooms meaning abuse crimes would take place there, to the creation or return of bathroom attendant jobs.

Just have schools who have that and it'll cut down on graffiti, pranks, and a new economic job would be created simply for someone to be the background checked guardian of the bathrooms all day, at minimum wage.

It could be funded by all the anti-LGBTQ community since their the ones afraid of crimes in the bathroom.

Jontxu
August 19th, 2016, 01:49 AM
I'm okay with neutral bathrooms, it's not like I care if there's a man or a woman peeing next to me.

Bob billy
December 21st, 2016, 01:08 PM
I don't believe there should be. There's already been rape attempts as a result.

Phosphene
December 21st, 2016, 01:52 PM
I don't believe there should be. There's already been rape attempts as a result.

Please don't post in threads with 2 or more months of inactivity. :locked: