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Vlerchan
December 13th, 2015, 12:20 PM
I mean for this to focus around non-fiction works. If this gets support at all I'm hoping we'll decide on a list together.

The hope is that we would choose works that are available as PDFs online because I most people here don't have a regular income. The aim then is that each month there would be work selected and we'd then have 30 days to read it. I would hope that these works would be short - i.e. <200 pp. Then there'd be discussion and perhaps that would occur in a separate ROTW thread.

I'm still considering as to whether the selection mechanism would be on rotation or democratic - or a mixture thereof.

Sound OK?

---

I'm tagging people that I think might be interested:

Paraxiom @JudeanZealot phuckphace Uniquemind Porpoise101 Microcosm Salad_Baby Reise Atom

Edit: For reference I'll be looking to start a thread and not a subforum.

Uniquemind
December 13th, 2015, 12:37 PM
I like the concept it's just I don't know about the page requirement in addition to 30 days. Is say argue for 60-62 days (those 31 month days: aka: 2 months) just because some months are busier than others or people go on vacation etc.

I say we have a tiered process: Pick a bunch of non-fiction works (books, magazines, internet articles (time), scientific journal publications). The last suggestion tends to be within the page length you're looking for so I assume we'll be doing lots of those, but it requires ability to comprehend academic jargon-terminology, statistics and statistic notation, and the scientific method obviously.

All works read should be in English or at least accurately English translated, I thought that went without saying but for the record I said it.

Then select a theme, and from that theme that matches the general compiled list of works we can read, we go with that.

Process should take 7 days to decide, giving 23 days to read and deliberate-debate in ROTW.

Individuals have permission and should bow out in the beginning if their forecasted 2 months schedules don't allow for this fun activity.

Judean Zealot
December 13th, 2015, 12:41 PM
I'm in. :D

Also, to tag me, make sure to write my username as 2 words.

I think 30 days is a reasonable time frame. 60 days is really long. And I would back a rotation system, just to keep things diverse. :D

Vlerchan
December 13th, 2015, 01:08 PM
I don't know about the page requirement in addition to 30 days. Is say argue for 60-62 days (those 31 month days: aka: 2 months) just because some months are busier than others or people go on vacation etc.
I'm good to let other participants work out the number of days to finish each work. I spend three to four hours a day commuting on a bus - and get through reading quite quick as a result - so I don't have the best judgement about what's a reasonable pace for people. However I so long as we keep it pleasant and open for people that can't do one sessions reading I don't have a problem with a time-limit being at the lower-end.

I also think suggestions of other resources is a good idea. I feel journal articles should be vetted first though because some of these demand an understanding of mathematics and statistics I don't feel it's fair to expect. Here's (http://socsci2.ucsd.edu/~aronatas/project/academic/Stiglitz%20credit.pdf) a random example of what I'm referring to. That also doesn't mean I disapprove of maths in all its guises but I'd rather highly-mathematical texts where avoided.

And I would back a rotation system, just to keep things diverse.
This is what I would prefer too. Looking at the people I cited we seem to have a broad set of interests.

---

For those curious. If I didn't cite you it's because I don't see you enough in ROTW.

Others can feel free to flag interest.

Judean Zealot
December 13th, 2015, 01:15 PM
I'm good to let other participants work out the number of days to finish each work. I spend three to four hours a day commuting on a bus - and get through reading quite quick as a result - so I don't have the best judgement about what's a reasonable pace for people. However I so long as we keep it pleasant and open for people that can't do one sessions reading I don't have a problem with a time-limit being at the lower-end.

I'm an even worse judge, I literally spend 4 hours daily doing extracurricular reading. I finish most books in a day or two.

StoppingTom
December 13th, 2015, 01:18 PM
I'd be in, definitely.

Abhorrence
December 13th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Not tagged but it sounds like something I'd enjoy.

Vlerchan
December 13th, 2015, 01:54 PM
I'd be in, definitely.Not tagged but it sounds like something I'd enjoy.
What sort of time-frame would yous find preferable?

Oh and like I said: don't worry about not getting tagged. It was always going to be the case I'd miss out on most of the people interested.

StoppingTom
December 13th, 2015, 02:24 PM
What sort of time-frame would yous find preferable?

Oh and like I said: don't worry about not getting tagged. It was always going to be the case I'd miss out on most of the people interested.

The 30 day thing you said works for me, as for discussion stuff...

I'm available most of the time, except for the few hours I'm asleep, I'm always lurking here.

Hudor
December 13th, 2015, 02:31 PM
I'm interested but right now I will just prefer to observe how it goes. I'll join the next session probably.

Kahn
December 13th, 2015, 03:50 PM
I will participate.

ImCoolBeans
December 13th, 2015, 04:32 PM
Sounds like a cool idea, I don't know if I really have time to participate all of the time but I'd be interested, and you have the stamp of approval :thumbsup:

Uniquemind
December 13th, 2015, 09:26 PM
I have to go by a 60-62, day time table, whatever you guys decide that's just how I have to operate due to my life's schedule.

(HW, extracurriculars, tutoring/babysitting job, and chores).

You can go by 30 days turnover, it just means I'm going to be late to the party discussion. I'm okay with that if you are.

I also favor a rotation.

Melodic
December 13th, 2015, 11:14 PM
Oooh. I'd love to be apart of this!

Judean Zealot
December 14th, 2015, 05:55 AM
Vlerchan.

Where would this project be based? A diary? The Open Book?

Porpoise101
December 14th, 2015, 07:22 AM
Yes this is a good idea I believe. Good timing as I just finished my book about Vikings.

Vlerchan
December 14th, 2015, 10:59 AM
I have to go by a 60-62, day time table, whatever you guys decide that's just how I have to operate due to my life's schedule.
I guess we can wait and see what other people prefer. I have ideas depending on what sort of divisions we get.

Where would this project be based? A diary? The Open Book?
I'm going to go with Open Book and then have the discussion threads in ROTW. That'll also result in it getting the most publicity.

---

I'm also considering modified rotation whereas there's two people chosen and then we vote on the book. That means we'll all get a turn at least suggesting something inside a 12 month run. That - and it means we get varied works whilst keeping the most amount of people interested.Thoughts?

I'm also going to put up a poll to so we can get ideas for timeframes. I decided after putting the poll up that it'd be clear to read: 1 month - 1.5 months - 2 months - so please cast votes with that in mind.

Judean Zealot
December 14th, 2015, 11:31 AM
I'm also considering modified rotation whereas there's two people chosen and then we vote on the book. That also means we'll all get a turn at least suggesting something inside a 12 month run. It also means we get varied works whilst keeping the most amount of people interested.Thoughts?

I suppose I can get on board with this. I was thinking that we should perhaps base the two members off of a more random method of selection than a strict rotation- if it's going to be suggestion against suggestion I think we should create a more random pool of combinations.

Kahn
December 14th, 2015, 01:08 PM
I'm also considering modified rotation whereas there's two people chosen and then we vote on the book. That means we'll all get a turn at least suggesting something inside a 12 month run. That - and it means we get varied works whilst keeping the most amount of people interested. Thoughts?

I'm in favor of the modified rotation.

Will there be a list of criteria which each recommended work will be required to meet?

Vlerchan
December 14th, 2015, 06:10 PM
I was thinking that we should perhaps base the two members off of a more random method of selection than a strict rotation- if it's going to be suggestion against suggestion I think we should create a more random pool of combinations.
Is there a method in mind? I considered three:

Each participant is assigned a number on a die and then I roll the die until all the participants are allocated a place and then book selection occurs from that point. Let's call that simple rotation.
Each participant is assigned a number on a die and then I roll twice to choose two participants. From there a book is chosen. The 'loser' is then placed back into the pot and I repeat the process until some round n whereas each person has a turn choosing the book. Let's call that non-simple rotation.
Each participant is assigned a number and then I roll twice to choose two participants. From there a book is chosen. I then place both participants back into the post and we repeat to process. Let's call this non-rotation.
One is what I had in mind in the previous post.

Will there be a list of criteria which each recommended work will be required to meet?
I was hoping we'd construct something like this as part of a group effort. So far I have in mind:
The work - or sum of works - consist of less than 200 pages. I want to see if we can all get through a 200 page piece before increasing that.
I would prefer we excluded pop-material.
It's written in or translated to English.
Books that excessive use of allegorical or esoteric techniques are avoided because the average participant isn't going to have a clue what's happening.
So for the most part I would prefer academic-orientated pieces that a person of median intelligence - that's us - would be able to handle with perhaps a little work. That's up for discussion here though and I have no problem renegotiating that standard.

Then we've to consider genres.

The Humanities. I'm thinking this would entail philosophy, political-philosophy, jurisprudence, classical studies, international relations, history, anthropology.
The Social Sciences. Economics, Politics (political-science, political-sociology, political-psychology, [current affairs]), sociology, psychology.
Natural Sciences. Literally not a clue about accessible sub-disciplines here. I'll let someone else advise.
That's also biased towards interests of mine. Really I don't think we need a strict guide on what genres we can choose from. The above should be considered as more of a guideline.

Kahn
December 14th, 2015, 09:00 PM
Each participant is assigned a number on a die and then I roll twice to choose two participants. From there a book is chosen. The 'loser' is then placed back into the pot and I repeat the process until some round n whereas each person has a turn choosing the book. Let's call that non-simple rotation.

I'm in favor of this method, as everyone participating will get an opportunity to choose a piece of work before someone chooses two themselves.


I was hoping we'd construct something like this as part of a group effort. So far I have in mind:
The work - or sum of works - consist of less than 200 pages. I want to see if we can all get through a 200 page piece before increasing that.
I would prefer we excluded pop-material.
It's written in or translated to English.
Books that excessive use of allegorical or esoteric techniques are avoided because the average participant isn't going to have a clue what's happening.
So for the most part I would prefer academic-orientated pieces that a person of median intelligence - that's us - would be able to handle with perhaps a little work. That's up for discussion here though and I have no problem renegotiating that standard.

Then we've to consider genres.

The Humanities. I'm thinking this would entail philosophy, political-philosophy, jurisprudence, classical studies, international relations, history, anthropology.
The Social Sciences. Economics, Politics (political-science, political-sociology, political-psychology, [current affairs]), sociology, psychology.
Natural Sciences. Literally not a clue about accessible sub-disciplines here. I'll let someone else advise.
That's also biased towards interests of mine. Really I don't think we need a strict guide on what genres we can choose from. The above should be considered as more of a guideline.

As far as a list of criteria goes, I like everything you've proposed here. I read mostly fiction, although I dabble in some social criticism and light philosophy, so I feel I'm not fit for developing the list. You've covered more topics with those three genres than I would have proposed, personally.

As for the Natural Sciences, biology and physics are the two that I'm immediately interested in. Astronomy as well.

Judean Zealot
December 15th, 2015, 05:15 AM
Each participant is assigned a number on a die and then I roll twice to choose two participants. From there a book is chosen. The 'loser' is then placed back into the pot and I repeat the process until some round n whereas each person has a turn choosing the book. Let's call that non-simple rotation.

This is what I want, so that everyone gets a chance.

Also, the natural sciences, while both their practical use and interest value are indisputable, I do not think are suitable for this project. One can freelance in the humanities, and even a beginner can contribute much, whereas a data based science is much more rigid. There would be much less to say for the previously uninitiated.

Kahn
December 15th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Also, the natural sciences, while both their practical use and interest value are indisputable, I do not think are suitable for this project. One can freelance in the humanities, and even a beginner can contribute much, whereas a data based science is much more rigid. There would be much less to say for the previously uninitiated.

Very valid points. I doubt very many of us, if any at all, have a a very deep background concerning the natural sciences. Instruction would be suspect at best.

Porpoise101
December 15th, 2015, 04:42 PM
This is what I want, so that everyone gets a chance.

Also, the natural sciences, while both their practical use and interest value are indisputable, I do not think are suitable for this project. One can freelance in the humanities, and even a beginner can contribute much, whereas a data based science is much more rigid. There would be much less to say for the previously uninitiated.
Archeology, natural history, and even biology have some connection I believe to the humanities. Perhaps instead of certain classifications of knowledge we choose a theme or context to read about. To discard such a huge realm seems inappropriate to me.

Judean Zealot
December 15th, 2015, 04:45 PM
Very valid points. I doubt very many of us, if any at all, have a a very deep background concerning the natural sciences. Instruction would be suspect at best.

I've got a pretty thorough background in motion physics, astronomy, and mathematics, and lesser background in biology, particularly evolutionary biology, but even so.

I wonder what we would consider anthropology, though. Data based or theoretical sociology?

Porpoise101 Obviously biological data or observations can be submitted insofar as they contribute to a point in the social sciences, but they shouldn't be allowed as a topic in themselves (ie a discussion about whether evolution proceeds in steady increments or is a 'punctuated equilibrium').

Vlerchan
December 15th, 2015, 07:50 PM
Judean Zealot: I'd thought similar on the natural sciences. Least from the experience I had in school it never seemed like a subject that an amateur might be able to jump into at will.

Perhaps instead of certain classifications of knowledge we choose a theme or context to read about.
I second a thematic approach. It's a much better than what I suggested on consideration.

---

I'd also agree with Judean Zealot - I believe - that data and observations should be allowed in as supplementaries as opposed to a focus in themselves.

Paraxiom
December 16th, 2015, 09:07 AM
I'm for it, and was going to reply till I forgot but was reminded

Reise
December 16th, 2015, 10:50 AM
I'm in.

Vlerchan
December 16th, 2015, 03:29 PM
I have themes in mind.
Government and Governance.
Culture and Society.
Philosophy.
Is that OK? It covers more or less all the basis I described without the pitfalls of specific inclusions or exclusions.

People should also suggested competing themes.

phuckphace
December 16th, 2015, 07:51 PM
Vlerchan - I'm in.

I'm also not picky about the particular theme or topic. I fully expect to start out having no clue what I'm reading, which is also fine.

Mein Kampf here]

Judean Zealot
December 16th, 2015, 08:02 PM
I have themes in mind.
Government and Governance.
Culture and Society.
Philosophy.
Is that OK? It covers more or less all the basis I described without the pitfalls of specific inclusions or exclusions.

People should also suggested competing themes.

I was just thinking: why not include some more of the less "hard" humanities? I'm talking about something like a comparative study of T.S. Eliot's works or something of the sort. I'm not sure what I think- on the one hand I enjoy that sort of thing (just imagine a discussion over Ezra Pounds Hugh Selwyn Mauberley :D), on the other hand, the allegories employed in poetry may be too much for some people.

phuckphace
December 16th, 2015, 09:39 PM
I was just thinking: why not include some more of the less "hard" humanities? I'm talking about something like a comparative study of T.S. Eliot's works or something of the sort. I'm not sure what I think- on the one hand I enjoy that sort of thing (just imagine a discussion over Ezra Pounds Hugh Selwyn Mauberley :D), on the other hand, the allegories employed in poetry may be too much for some people.

godmode: Plato's Republic in the original Greek

Judean Zealot
December 16th, 2015, 09:47 PM
godmode: Plato's Republic in the original Greek

Unfortunately, Idk Greek. It's on my hit list, for when I finish with my current projects of French and Spanish.

But any Plato would be awesome, I just think I'd probably get more original. :P

Microcosm
December 17th, 2015, 07:22 PM
It's a good idea and I would like to participate.

We could perhaps start on New Year's Day.

Kahn
December 18th, 2015, 01:44 AM
I have themes in mind.
Government and Governance.
Culture and Society.
Philosophy.
Is that OK? It covers more or less all the basis I described without the pitfalls of specific inclusions or exclusions.

People should also suggested competing themes.

Would "Law" fall under "Government and Governance" and/or "Culture and Society"?

Judean Zealot
December 18th, 2015, 02:58 AM
Would "Law" fall under "Government and Governance" and/or "Culture and Society"?

Governance, at least if we're talking about the law itself. If we examine the development of particular laws as a manifestation of a sort of national evolution, however, it would probably fall under "society"

Edit: Any thoughts anybody on allowing or disallowing discussion on English poetry?

Vlerchan
December 18th, 2015, 02:23 PM
Would "Law" fall under "Government and Governance" and/or "Culture and Society"?
I'm in agreement with Judean Zealot. Law itself - inc. the likes of comparative law - would fall within Government and Governance and Sociolegal studies would fall within 'Culture and Society'. Then Jurisprudence would fall under philosophy.

What sort of law do you have in mind though?

---

I'd also imagine Government and Governance to include the natural sciences insofar as this relates to questions of public-policy. What's the thoughts on that? It narrows the field to what I'd hope would be more accessibly formatted material.

Any thoughts anybody on allowing or disallowing discussion on English poetry?
I'm just not sure. Perhaps it's just academic-snobbery (it almost certainly is) but I'm not so inclined to see poetry as furthering knowledge in the same sense the other mentioned disciplines do.

---

For reference the suggestions I made surrounding themes and rotation is going to sit there as a 'suggest otherwise or forever hold your piece' thing. If people could raise all their issues now please.

On timeframes. Looking at the results I'm considering two options as compromises.
The more simple option is that the timeframe is 5 weeks.
The more complicated option is that there is two timeframes. The first group reads a work a month. The second group reads a work each two months - the work being the earlier work of group one in that period.

Thus group 2 joins in on every second discussion.
I'd put up a poll if I could. Thoughts though?

Kahn
December 18th, 2015, 02:40 PM
I'm in agreement with Judean Zealot. Law itself - inc. the likes of comparative law - would fall within Government and Governance and Sociolegal studies would fall within 'Culture and Society'. Then Jurisprudence would fall under philosophy.

What sort of law do you have in mind though?

I'm interested in learning about the development of American law since the inception of the United States.

I'd also imagine Government and Governance to include the natural sciences insofar as this relates to questions of public-policy. What's the thoughts on that? It narrows the field to what I'd hope would be more accessibly formatted material.

Makes sense.

I'm just not sure. Perhaps it's just academic-snobbery (it almost certainly is) but I'm not so inclined to see poetry as furthering knowledge in the same sense the other mentioned disciplines do.

I'd be alright with studying poetry, though it doesn't offer much in the way of practical value.

On timeframes. Looking at the results I'm considering two options as compromises.
The more simple option is that the timeframe is 5 weeks.
The more complicated option is that there is two timeframes. The first group reads a work a month. The second group reads a work each two months - the work being the earlier work of group one in that period.

Thus group 2 joins in on every second discussion.
I'd put up a poll if I could. Thoughts though?

I like the simple method of everyone reading it in 5 weeks. Simplicity is just, simpler. Those who can and desire to participate will participate.

Judean Zealot
December 18th, 2015, 02:50 PM
I'm just not sure. Perhaps it's just academic-snobbery (it almost certainly is) but I'm not so inclined to see poetry as furthering knowledge in the same sense the other mentioned disciplines do.

I'm in agreement here: you know my position on the arts. I just don't see how the fact that poetry doesn't further knowledge as relevant to a recreational reading group.

Vlerchan
December 18th, 2015, 03:08 PM
I'm interested in learning about the development of American law since the inception of the United States.
I also wouldn't mind this [even if I'm Irish]. Law is a real interesting way to study a nation's history [I'm a law student].

I just don't see how the fact that poetry doesn't further knowledge as relevant to a recreational reading group.
I won't deny this. There's no specific reason to exclude it other than it having gone against the spirit of the criterion so far [which is so vague I wouldn't blame anyone for outright rejecting it].

Judean Zealot
December 18th, 2015, 03:20 PM
I'd also imagine Government and Governance to include the natural sciences insofar as this relates to questions of public-policy. What's the thoughts on that? It narrows the field to what I'd hope would be more accessibly formatted material.

Can you expand on this a little more?

I'd imagine that my above criticism of the natural sciences would apply here as well; the subject being relevant to public policy doesn't make it any more accessible to the layperson.

Vlerchan
December 18th, 2015, 04:07 PM
I'd imagine that my above criticism of the natural sciences would apply here as well; the subject being relevant to public policy doesn't make it any more accessible to the layperson.
The aim would be to include the natural sciences as supplementaries. So one might read about the political realities of the climate change debate and then read the scientific reports that underline it.

It's in a similar fold to how I intend to introduce economics if it's on my mind when I get chosen. I intend the technical material to more supplement reading on the broader debate than be the focus. So here I'de choose a book on European Union trade politics - or NAFTA - or whatever - and then supplement that with the technical data. If I'm honest I'm not sure if the same scope is available with the natural sciences but I hope to still leave it open to people.

Judean Zealot
December 18th, 2015, 11:56 PM
Vlerchan.

Okay, I misunderstood you then. I'm in agreement with this, as I've posted earlier.

Judean Zealot
December 20th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Vlerchan

Is there anything we are waiting for?

Vlerchan
December 20th, 2015, 03:27 PM
Judean Zealot:

I thought I'd give a bit for people to offer up suggestions. I'll probably make a thread and get it running tonight though if that doesn't start happening.

Paraxiom
December 20th, 2015, 06:26 PM
Judean Zealot:

I thought I'd give a bit for people to offer up suggestions. I'll probably make a thread and get it running tonight though if that doesn't start happening.

Sounds good!

Vlerchan
December 20th, 2015, 07:14 PM
I've gone and put the thread up there. Oakheart and Porpoise101 are up to choose the work first.

I added everyone that either commented they'd join in thread or voted (and never commented otherwise) to the pool.

Paraxiom
December 20th, 2015, 09:43 PM
I've gone and put the thread up there. Oakheart and Porpoise101 are up to choose the work first.

I added everyone that either commented they'd join in thread or voted (and never commented otherwise) to the pool.

So is this now the thread for it?
Sorry if I misunderstand

Vlerchan
December 20th, 2015, 09:48 PM
So is this now the thread for it?
Sorry if I misunderstand
Oops. Forgot the link:

www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3277784#post3277784

Paraxiom
December 20th, 2015, 09:55 PM
Oops. Forgot the link:

www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3277784#post3277784

Thanks